(indistinct)
-: The lesson there was, you know,
and like I said plenty of the time,
the lesson there was, you know, in order to give respect,
you have to receive respect,
so he taught me how to go up there and be respectful,
and stand in your spot and waiting,
but don't leave until they say, thank you.
And I tell this story a lot,
because it stayed with me.
Daniell: What happened though?
Did the teller say thank you?
-: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And I'll soon be 68
and you know, as we do the math,
just like, you know, 58 years ago
and 58 from 2016 is gonna give you what?
64, 54, I think, 54 or something like that, yeah.
So, it's profound,
but anyway, love my dad, I love my mom,
she didn't work, she took care of the kids.
She taught us all how to do everything,
I mean, I don't know how well you are, Daniell,
but I can probably iron better than you.
I can sew my own hems, I can stitch up my pants,
I can starch clothes.
We used to make starch with water
and shake it up in a bottle.
She made us clean under the house,
we all had to cook breakfast for the family.
We all had a week, yeah,
but that was my folks, they were...
so I grew up in this area, you know, went to school here
and had all the challenges that everyone else has,
you know, in the segregated area
and trying to get through the area,
and your times with as much skin on your back as you can.
Daniell: So can you tell me
about the neighborhood in which you grew up?
-: Yeah, yeah, my neighborhood,
the main thoroughfare between the busiest street was 11th,
and then the next busiest street was 4th Street.
11th Street was the main busiest thoroughfare at the time
and we lived on the street called Hollywood.
So, my neighborhood was predominantly black,
when I say predominantly, put 99%.
And I mentioned,
my dad had the only neighborhood grocery store.
There were probably 400 families in the area
and that neighborhood supported us.
We had a school district where the people in my neighborhood
went to the black schools,
so we never interacted with the folks
in the other neighborhood, white schools.
It was a segregated school system back then.
So, we did everything, you know,
we had the little neighborhood churches
and the elementary school, Hollywood Elementary School was
in my neighborhood,
so, we left from the elementary school
went to the to the middle school
and high school which was out of the neighborhood.
Daniell: And which ones were those?
-: There was Blanche, it was one of the middle schools
and Hybrid High School was the high school.
The white schools those days were South Park
and Peach, those schools.
Daniell: And so you said this,
your neighborhood was about 99% black,
who made up that other 1%?
Were they white? Were they Mexican Americans?
-: There were Mexican Americans.
Daniell: Okay.
Mexican Americans were other very small percentage, yeah.
(phone vibrating)
Daniell: Do you mind?
I don't need it, I'm just gonna turn it off completely.
Daniell: And so those, the Mexican Americans
who lived in your community,
did they go to the same schools as you?
-: No, they didn't.
They didn't go to school.
They were, I guess they were workers,
they did not go to our schools.
There were the very small percentage, very small percentage,
didn't really see them that much.
It's as if they disappeared into the landscape
for some reason, yeah.
Daniell: So can you tell me about...
so, your neighborhood was segregated, I'm assuming,
is that correct?
-: Segregated from the white neighborhood, yes.
Daniell: Okay.
And you said that you had everything that you needed
on your side of town?
You never had a reason
to go to the white neighborhood at all?
-: No, we didn't.
We didn't have a reason to go to a white neighborhood.
You know, back in those days, kids were
a little bit more industrious.
We cut lawns, we all had a little push mower
and so, the white neighborhood, I mentioned,
there was 11th Street and there was 4th,
while on the other side of 4th Street
was the white neighborhood,
on the other side of 11th Street
was the white neighborhood.
So we would take our lawnmowers,
and we push over to their neighborhoods
and cut grass and stuff like that, to make money.
So, that was the only reason, you know,
that we would go to those neighborhoods.
We'd play in our own neighborhood.
We had playgrounds, we had the park.
The park, amusingly,
the city was creative at providing infrastructure
while your community could sustain itself,
even though it was, it didn't have everything,
the majority community had.
So, for larger recreation,
there was a place called Central Park,
and it was just south of my neighborhood.
And where it was located at now,
is Memorial Baptist Hospital.
That whole hospital complex used to be a park.
And there was playgrounds, there was swimming,
there was baseball diamonds,
there was everything that you wanted in a park.
They even had (indistinct)
if you guys wanna go by, the park is still there,,
and it's the only thing that remains
from the Central Park at that time,
is the locomotive that they took over to the park
to give us some reference that,
you know, there were bigger things, you know,
out there that we could, didn't have to go to,
but they brought to us.
And I think of, metaphorically speaking,
instead of Muhammad going to the mountain,
they brought part of mountain to Muhammad,
so they brought us a little,
they brought us a locomotive
and yeah, it's interesting and I think about it,
but we had a nice park, it was a nice park.
And so, and when you were kids,
you don't know what you're missing, you know,
all the things that are important to you,
you know, your family, your education, some recreation,
those are the things that were important to us back then.
And our parents were wise enough
to protect us from things that they thought would harm us.
So we were, we had a good close neighborhood.
We played with each other, you know, games, sports
and all, we all had the neighborhood churches.
In fact, the church was three doors down
from my dad's store, so...
Daniell: Which church was this?
-: Morning Star Baptist Church,
it was the church I grew up in
and so, back then we did not need so much to go
to the other community or neighborhoods
because we had everything,
we had everything we needed, maybe not everything we wanted,
but we had everything we needed, so...
And you have to understand, you know, 50 years ago,
the family unit was a lot closer
and meant a lot more to individuals
than the family unit means now, on whole.
So, you know, brothers ran together a lot,
played together a lot
and did things together a lot, you know,
they rode bikes together, drove in cars together,
went everywhere together
and the family, was a tighter unit back then
than it is today.
And that's sad because, you know, the family is the core
of the community
and I think that's one of the things we've lost.
And you know, you talk about the neighborhood,
that we have everything, you know,
when we had our neighborhood schools
and our, you may have heard this referred to, before,
but when we had our schools, we had our teachers.
And our teachers were from our neighborhoods,
and our teachers cared for us,
they loved us, they nurtured us.
We knew them well, and they knew us well,
and there was more respect.
And I think part of what we lost
when the integration came about,
was thinking that the other neighborhood,
everything was better
and certainly the schools weren't
because I don't think education that kids gets nowadays
from someone who's not from your neighborhood
have your best interests at heart.
They're not gonna care that you learn as much.
It's more just routine now versus this teacher
knowing your mother and your father intimately,
and knowing you intimately,
going this church with you, you know,
their kids playing with your kids, so, you know,
the family extended not only to, you know, to neighborhood,
but extended to the church and extended to the school,
and everything else, so, when you talk about, you know,
that my neighborhood have everything, it had,
everything we needed to develop real citizens,
who had great morals,
and the neighborhood today is somewhat disintegrated.
You know, that's amusing.
Daniell: So,
(clears throat)
your dad owned a grocery store,
and you said the only grocery store on your,
in the black neighborhood,
-: Yeah.
Daniell: Did he do any other work
before he owned that store?
-: He worked at a place called Beaumont Iron Works,
which was a foundry-like place,
but my dad had an entrepreneurial spirit, meaning, you know,
he always wanted to have his own business,
wanted to have his own.
My dad was one of 10 kids
and all of my uncles were entrepreneurs.
You know, they had lumber companies, other grocery stores,
gasoline stations, furniture companies, all that stuff.
You know, in those days,
black people were, I don't know if they were hungry,
but they were, they had more courage
to go out and do things
because they knew if they wanted a better life,
they had to make a better life for themselves,
rather than just accepting what comes their away, yeah.
Daniell: And so you said, all of your uncles,
your dad's brothers had businesses,
what about your aunts?
Did any of them?
-: I just had one aunt.
Daniell: Okay. -: I have a one aunt.
It was a nine boys and one girl
and she lived across the street from my dad.
And she was the mother of the church
and yeah, one aunt.
And either she had enough in her spirit, 'cause she sold,
I don't know if you recall,
but she sold, what they call Avon products in those days.
And before she started selling those products,
she used to make tea cakes,
and sell tea cakes to the neighborhood, yeah.
Daniell: Okay, do you remember
when your dad first got the business,
or do you, were you alive at that time?
Do you remember the year maybe?
-: My dad built his own house,
I have a picture of the house warming with all my brothers,
all his brothers that were in town,
and my mother and my grandfather,
everyone came over, he built his own home.
In those days, families pitched together more,
so, people came together to build homes, you know,
then he left and went help someone build a home.
And that was in '49.
So I'm gonna say somewhere around '49, '50, yeah.
And he kept that store until the late,
the mid to late '80s, yeah.
Daniell: Okay.
What was, do you remember him saying anything about,
maybe either of your parents or aunts and uncles
talking about the issues that they faced
in trying to be entrepreneurs,
in terms of getting vendors
or getting the products
or customers that they had, in terms of race?
Are there ever any issues around that?
-: The only thing I could reference
about issues around vendors, you know,
I think about my dad had to go
and get most of his items for his store,
there's a place that was downtown, we call it Downtown,
but he had to go pick up his items
and once his store became more and more productive,
and more of a business,
he was able to have a few people bring things to him.
But, to show that he was still in control of his own destiny
and creating his own legacy,
he would close everyday at one o'clock.
Every day at one o'clock he would close, no matter what,
we couldn't keep the store open all day
and the reason he was doing that was not only to get rest,
but to create order around the day,
and to let the people who were bringing him goods know that,
Okay, now you gotta come to,
(chuckles)
you're coming to me and I'm gonna close at one
and if you want to sell me your stuff, get here before one
or come back after three.
And I remember, you know,
he would be in the store, he'd close up
and here would come a vendor, be it with cigarettes
or groceries or whatever.
If they get there five or 10 after 1:00,
either had to wait or come back.
And he would not allow them to come to the door
because the store was in the front yard, basically,
you know, the store then the house,
if you didn't know anything about neighborhood stores,
they were at the residence.
It's amazing how codes have changed nowadays,
either it's residential or commercial.
And you think about things progressing,
I don't know if we're progressing that much because,
now the business has to be in a commercial area
and you can't live there,
or the residential, where you can't put a business.
And if you look at some of the stores nowadays,
they have the store and everything in the back,
that's probably some residential area that people are living
in, which kinda goes back to, you know, 50 years ago,
the way my folks did it,
and neighborhood groceries were in those days.
But, there were no real challenges for my dad.
The groceries existed, he went, got them
and brought them back and put on the shelf.
There was a company, as soon as I could drive,
there was a place called Borden's Milk Company,
which was on the other side of the 11th Street,
where the businesses were,
and I would get in the car and go to Borden's Milk Company,
and get the milk, bring it back in the vehicle
and then put it in the refrigerator.
So, we had no real problems with goods.
The amount of goods would increase,
we could provide more depending on the capacity of us
to be able to shop other places.
So, we went from the various staples to the milks,
and then the meats and all.
There was a place called Home Packing,
that, for the meats, Borden Company for the milk,
and Steadman Company for the dry goods and all.
And the cigarettes and all,
people would bringing those to you,
and the sodas and the beers
and things like that would come in the large trucks.
So, the more places we could go
and be invited to,
without having too many problems,
'cause he wouldn't, my dad would not grovel,
he wouldn't beg, I mean, you had to meet him eye to eye,
you know, he wasn't gonna go in crawling
or begging.
My dad, one thing my mom did do,
you probably too young to understand poll tax.
You may have heard the term before,
but when black people were given the right to vote,
they had pay for that right with a thing called poll tax.
So, my folks, my mom sold poll tax
and people would come to the store
and she would have a little place in the store,
a little table in the back.
People would come in and buy their poll tax
and because they promoted,
my dad was very engaged into civil rights,
he sold poll tax, my mom and all,
he always was the person that people would come and talk to
to say, Okay, who should we vote for?
What do they stand for?
Is that gonna help the black race?
Well, it gave us more rights and things like that.
So, yeah, that little store was very significant,
was a focal point in the community.
My dad's, I don't know if you recall,
but, if anyone's told you about that, I was pretty young,
but our house got shot up one time.
Daniell: Do you know what year?
-: Don't recall the year that much,
it had to be somewhere in the early '60s
or late '50s, gotta be in the late '50s.
Civil Rights Bill was passed in '64,
so it had to be in the late '50s, yeah,
because, even though progress has been made,
there was still people who didn't want progress to be made,
so, any little thing they can do to discourage you,
they would do.
So, my dad got to be real good friends with the police,
and they would come by the store
and kinda gave him this feeling
that he was important enough to be protected,
even though he wasn't in a protection program.
There was a policeman named, Buster Turner,
who would come by,
and policemen those days were a little more involved
and known and respected in the community
because they actually came in, came by
and talked to you, you know, and hung around while,
and the kids came by
and they weren't afraid of police in those days as much,
they trusted them more in those days than they do now.
Daniell: Were they from the community, typically?
-: Yes, they were from the community also,
that's another thing that we've lost as,
community policing, people, you hear that term,
but what it means is the ability of the police
and the community to actually work together
to resolve issues.
It's not walking down the street with a gun,
that's not community policing.
It's really, community and police working together
to resolve issues, you know, in their community, yeah.
Daniell: So, I'm interested in,
so, you were born in 1948,
and the race ride here in Beaumont occurred in 1943,
I'm curious,
and it sounds like your parents prepared you for everything
in different ways.
Did they talk a lot about racial issues in the city?
And did they talk to you about the race riot at all?
-: Not much at all.
Daniell: Okay.
-: Not much at all.
Daniell: And the race riot?
-: Not much at all, my dad was, my parents were very,
what I say, they weren't over-protective,
but they understood the capacity to make a difference
and not to live in the negative.
So, we had everything we needed,
we had a shelter over our head, we had food, we had a car,
so, we, it wasn't, we didn't talk a lot about,
we had the first television in the neighborhood
and my dad would put the television
where neighborhood people can come look through the window
and watch TV, so the major issues
like the Eisenhower Election
and things like that, even though, you know,
I didn't realize the impact of him doing that then,
I realize it now, you know,
now, speaking these days
because we were, our family was probably
a little better off than most
and he was very good at sharing
and understanding that you move forward,
you can't go forward looking backwards.
So, he just didn't speak a lot about it,
he didn't wanna damage us.
My dad, I never heard him curse,
never heard my dad curse, never saw him angry,
he was a very controlled person,
he controlled his emotions very well, so,
he taught us how to be respectful
and be respect about others,
so, he kept us on a plateau of appreciation.
We grew up in a Christian home
and he gave us the belief, you know,
I even hold this, you know, more today,
he gave us a belief that God is in control,
and no matter what, he's gonna look over you
and take care of you, so,
that was probably the center of all of our teaching,
you know, so he didn't really talk about it that much.
We were young, we couldn't do anything,
so, you know, there were meetings in the home
of people who came around.
I gave you a gentleman's name earlier, Ed Moore,
my dad would meet with these folks
either in the front room or in the store
and that meeting took place away from the family.
And they would have that meeting, you know,
it'd be men from other parts of the city,
some would be preachers, city workers, educators,
they would all come together, periodically
and talk about issues
and they would decide how to go forward
or whatever so, he kinda sheltered us from that.
Daniell: And was this a formal organization?
-: It was not a formal organization.
Daniell: Okay.
-: Yeah, It was not a formal organization
as we have them today, you know,
no, it wasn't a formal organization.
Back in those days, you couldn't have formal organization
because you'd be targeted, so they would just...
and the meetings weren't even say like,
every month, at a certain time, at this place, you know,
sometimes the meetings would be at his place
and sometime he would go away
and meet, you know, other places,
but no, there was no formality in those days.
You gotta remember now,
those are some pretty perilous times,
so, you don't wanna become a target, yeah.
Daniell: And what about women?
Were there ever any women who attended those meetings?
-: No, no.
Daniell: So I'm curious if you can recall
a time in your life when you first came to realizations
about race
or about racial difference,
or if you had a moment like that at all
and if so, when?
-: The clearest moment would be in 1964,
when the Civil Rights Bill was passed,
and we could go to any school, we could go to,
and I was going to Hiebert,
because that was the high school at the time
and the principal called several of us,
and his name was James F. Jackson.
He called several of us in to discuss, you know,
now we can go to any school,
we need some kids to take advantage of this opportunity
to go some other schools.
So, he picked me and a girl named Cheryl Keys,
and a girl named Gloria Jones
and we went to the school that associated with South park
at the time.
And I can recall, Daniell, going to that school
and seeing how nice the classrooms were
and how nice the bathrooms were,
and all the shops.
I liked to do mechanical drawing at the time or drafting
and we had what you call a T-square,
so that lines could be perpendicular and horizontal
and you can, you know, do drafting.
And I recall that our T-squares were, you know,
there were so old, we in the same school district now,
but our T-squares were so old that Mr. Peterson
and Mr. Thomas had to continue to fix them
and put screws back in
and glue them and everything else,
even though all those things were supposed
to be provided by the school district.
Daniell: Except that they're equal.
-: But it wasn't, it wasn't, the equipment was inferior.
And we had to work with that kind of stuff,
but so getting back, I remember going to the white school
and you know, our desk
we're always the desk that came from the white school,
they got the newer desk.
So, the desks we got were always had, you know, rough edges
all the seats were always split,
the paint was always worn
and chipped and the feet on the desk were always worn,
so the desk was always either wobbly or whatever.
I went to the classroom, I saw these new desks
and a great looking desk
and all the lockers, you know,
the lockers we got, were the lockers
that came from the white school to our school.
The books that we got, were the books
that had all their names in it
and they would put a piece of tape
and they would tape over all those names
and put an another line, because, you know
back in those days, you had to put your name on your book.
So all these names, so then they would put a piece
of tape on another piece of paper with another label,
where you can start some more names.
Well we never...
and I got Sasol books with no names in them,
I mean, it sounds funny now,
but like brand new books you know,
how a book is passed down,
how the corners are always bent and raveling
and there's notes inside the books
and words underlined
and the pages are not fresh
and we just, it's funny,
But we were like, when we were in the black schools,
we wanted to be close with the person
who handed out the books, so you can get the newer
of the older books, you know, it was nice
to just open the book
and you just flip the pages where you can smell fresh...
(chuckles)
It's funny now when you think about it,
but, so then I go to this school
and I see all this new stuff.
And we had to actually drive our dad's car to the shop,
the motor shop,
hire a car or use a car,
to be able to work on the generator, at that time,
it is automated now
or the carburetor, are the certain parts of the car,
but the car had to be restored that afternoon to drive,
you know, be able to drive back,
so it was funny to get a used car
and kinda refurbished, your car was accepted at the shop,
so that all the shop people can work on your car
and your car would go back better than it came, you know,
because we didn't have extra cars and stuff.
At the white schools, they had motors and things
on stands back then, I mean, there were cars
and motors there waiting for you every day,
that you couldn't walk
and so, that was probably the most profound moment
that I saw the big difference in black and white.
Daniell: How did you feel then?
-: I didn't feel, you know, I didn't feel very good about it,
you know, I'm 15 then, you know, you have emotions
and you are interpreting what you see
and we always knew they had better stuff,
but to actually go see it and be part of it.
So, I stayed there, you know, one year
and I went back to Hiebert to graduate
'cause I did not like the environment, fought every day.
Every day, there was a fight in the hallway,
there was a fight in the restroom,
there was a fight in the cafeteria,
so, I never had the same seat every day,
It was always, you know, the white kids were,
you have to take what they let you have,
so, you couldn't sit in the front of the room,
they always, you know, so if you sat here one day,
like row three, the sixth seat from the front, the next day
some white kids gonna be sitting in that seat
and lets you know that, you know,
you're here, but you're not welcome.
So, I would get to class later
when everyone was always seated
and I would, you know, take a seat,
but it became a game with them, you know,
to kinda move me around.
Daniell: What would happen if you went to class early
and sat in the front?
-: It'd be a fight after class was out,
it'd be a fight, come out of class and be a fight
and, you know, there was fights just about every day,
so you don't wanna fight every day, so, you just wait
and sit where you can sit.
So, now I'm recalling not being a second class citizen
for my dad didn't want me to ride the bus
to sit in the back, so I was certain, I was not gonna sit
in the back of his classroom, so, went to the principal
and told him, you know, I wanna go back to my school.
So I went back to Hiebert, graduated from Hiebert.
Daniell: So,
(clears throat)
and not to dwell on this too much
but, when you were there,
what did you think about the quality of education
that you got at South park in comparison to Hiebert?
-: I think they had better tools,
the teachers appear to be better equipped
because they have more tools,
but, you know I was in survival mode over there
at that time, so it's kinda difficult
to learn when you're survival in survival mode,
which brings about the subject today,
our kids are going to school in survival mode,
they don't have that a great family unit,
you know, some of them don't have a good home environment,
some of them are hungry, they haven't eaten,
they haven't slept well that night, you know,
the lights may not have been on,
they may have been in the dark, you know,
so, if you're in the dark,
you also don't have air conditioning, so,
kids are, you know, how can they learn in survival mode?
So, it was my own survival mode, so I didn't stay that long.
I will tell you who that, during that same time,
all our quote unquote, better teachers
and they knew who they were,
they took them to the white schools
and they had their not so good teachers
and they sent them to the black schools, yeah, so,
we didn't do well with integration of schools.
Daniell: That's something that's come up a lot
in a lot of our interviews.
-: Yeah.
Daniell: The good teachers that black schools were taken
and put in the white schools.
-: Yeah.
Daniell: And the bad teachers were moved
to black schools.
-: And just so you know,
teachers back then used teaching as a career,
so they could really take just about any teacher
because our teachers we're part of community
and they did a career,
we had very few teachers who weren't what we call...
but there were some teachers who were so good
that they just stood out
and they took all those teachers, especially the ones
in math, that's the one that they concentrated
on taking the good math teachers,
the better math teachers.
We had one teacher whose name was, we called him Prof,
what was his real name?
Everyone called him Prof, he would not go,
he would not go to the white schools,
he said he'd quit before he went to a white school.
Daniell: And he stayed at the black school?
-: Stayed at the black school, yeah.
Daniell: So we're talking about school desegregation
or integration to, you know, however that happened.
A lot of our other interviewees have also really
lamented losing the...
even though they lived in segregated communities on,
you know, black side of town
and they had all of these things that were there
and, you know, owned by black people, run by black people,
usually, they really lament desegregation
and talk about it as breaking up that community
and that self-sufficient framework that was developed
over the years.
-: Right, right.
Daniell: What do you think about that?
-: You know, I agree there's always a consequence
and there's always a sacrifice, you know,
when you have change, change doesn't come
without a consequence, so, it's how you manage that change.
I just don't think it was managed well,
we didn't have the people in place to manage it well,
meaning, we didn't have the school board members,
who are on the school board
that could have managed that change.
We didn't have city council people on a city council,
who could have managed that change well, so,
as change happened the people who were accountable
for protecting the agencies that were impacted,
were not ingratiated to the agencies, meaning,
the school board members didn't care
that your communital school was impacted adversely.
The city council members didn't care
that your area was impacted adversely,
but they cared about their area,
that's why they got the better teachers
and everything else.
That's why they had the better schools
that had the better learning environment, you know,
their cafeteria was bigger, it had more food,
had more kinds of food, the band rooms was bigger,
you know, where our kids had to buy their own instruments,
these schools had instruments that could be used
or loaned.
See, the school board members knew that the shops
were better outfitted, they knew that,
they actually knew it because they were part of it,
their kids went to those schools,
so they made sure their kids had everything they needed.
They didn't care about our kids,
so when the integration happened,
the better fruit that we're at our districts
and schools, they took the better fruit,
even though they had good fruit already.
It just wasn't managed well, so, you would think
that the whole education system would have improved.
They used a term, a rising tide raises all boats, well,
it just raised the boat, you know, in the white community,
we stayed afloat, but, you know,
as they say, you know, crap rolls downhill, well,
that's kinda what happened with integration,
all the crap in the school system rolled downhill.
And it wasn't until, you know, the community
started understanding where change could be impacted,
that they started, you know, having people to run
for school districts and school boards
and, you know, the school board members,
even though they were the minority of the number,
they could raise issues
and the community to come to school board meetings.
And, you know, I recall when Dr. Price was
on the school board, you know, he would raise issues
and he would ask, okay,
I need everybody to come to the school board meeting,
I'm gonna be raising this issue
and I need you all in the (indistinct)
And, you know, we would go to school board meetings
and we would clap for him and everything,
then they started where you couldn't clap
or applause or be, you know, boisterous
in the school board meetings,
and so, then they have this school board,
attorney called, Tanner Hunt.
I don't know if you've ever seen Matlock on TV,
but he was a Matlock of the day for the school board,
he really supposed to be the attorney
for the entire district,
he was really the attorney for the white people
and everything that came up to make things equal,
he found a loophole to delay, make it unlawful, unnecessary.
Daniell: Turner Hunt?
-: Tanner.
Daniell: Tanner.
-: Tanner Hunt, yeah.
Daniell: When do you remember these changes starting
to occur with people of color running
for elected offices for the school board
or in Beaumont in general? When? what era? or like--
-: That was the late sixties, yeah, the late sixties
and that gentleman, I gave you the name Ed Moore,
he was the first County Commissioner who came out
of that era, so it'd be interesting for you
to get his perspective on how his entry
into the political world impacted him
and what he did, yeah,
but yeah, it was the late sixties or early seventies.
Daniell: So, I'm gonna kind of move away
from your personal story specifically
and talk about some national things that were going on.
So you mentioned the Civil Rights Act in 54, I mean,
sorry, 64 already
and you're also coming of age during the brown people world
and what's commonly termed as the civil rights era going
into like the black and brown power eras.
I wanna know how some of those things came
into your consciousness or if they did,
if they affected you, if you watched--
-: They did, honestly, I don't know
if you recall when Jesse Jackson ran for president
you weren't even born, were you?
Daniell: No, but in the, I think 80 earlies.
-: Yeah, yeah, he and I was real engaged, involved, you know,
voted, you know, we would actually walk the streets
and knock on people's doors and tell them to go vote
and all this kinda stuff, you know, so yeah,
when opportunities...
when I realized that my involvement would really make
a big difference
and I can get more people involved,
how we can make a big difference
and when Jesse Jackson ran for president,
he actually came to the church, Starlight Baptist Church
and that's where he did a lot of his campaigning from.
And that was the biggest church in the city at the time,
one, one Buford street, it was a big event.
It was probably the biggest event we ever had in the city
when Jesse Jackson ran for president,
I was part of security team for the church,
so I was really engaged and involved
and I was always involved in voter registration, you know,
from the point when my mom sold poll tax, so, yeah,
back in those days is my springboard effect,
I guess you would say, I got sprung into action back then
after the Jesse Jackson
and during the Jesse Jackson era.
And then and when Ed Moore and ever since then,
I've been engaged with politics trying to make sure
that we understand the impact of having representation
on whatever level of government, be it state, city, state,
or federal government level, it's very important
to have representation.
So, I've been engaged ever since,
you know, back then it was, you know, the president
and then later it became the governor, you know,
you kinda pick your battles
and figure why you can do the best, you know,
then it became the commissioners
and then it became city council, so, yeah,
you know, once you get in, you know,
once you're in, you're in.
If you have a desire to improve your community
and I have a innate desire, you know,
given to me from my father, my parents to help be a part
of the community, so that's where I am today.
Daniell: So, were some of the voter, I guess
voter registration activity that your parents were involved
in when you were a child,
maybe throughout parts of your life, do you remember an air
of fear or concern about their safety, your safety?
-: Not really and maybe I was just naive,
I don't wanna make you think my dad was a violent man,
but he always carried a pistol, a 38 Smith and Wesson
and he kept that pistol with him most of the time, you know,
in the store and back and forth,
so, my dad just didn't cultivate fear,
he cultivated courage
and I would tell you,
people in those days, didn't cultivate fear.
You know, when you look at pictorial history
and you look at stuff, how, you know,
people walked up to dogs and policemen
and water cannons and all,
it's not because they were fearful,
it's because they were courageous.
So, he didn't cultivate fear, we just didn't cultivate fear
in those days.
And I think fear comes from cowardice,
I think fear is really an excuse not to act, you know,
and I tell people about that, you know,
and I say, you know, I'm a Christian
and I say all the time, how can you have fear
and also have God?
Because God is not a God of fear,
If you have fear, he's nowhere around.
If there's fear in you, God is nowhere around.
And I use that all the time, so that, you know,
even on my job, you know I would take on the administrations
and stuff like that
and, you know, even though my wife is a Christian,
she was brought up Catholic.
She is a believer, she was always fearful for me, you know,
going and doing things,
but I was never fearful, not even today, you know,
I hear people tell me today
and I'll speak out certain places, city council meeting
and people will say, hey man, those people gon' do this
and so to you.
And I'd say, are you serious?
You really think I'm afraid that someone's gon' do something
to me for speaking out, so,
and the people who are saying that are just using it
as an excuse to cover up their cowardice.
-: So, if there's fear, there's no God,
if there's God, there's no fear.
So, my dad just didn't cultivate it.
It may be the wrong asset for you, you may be looking
for something more dramatic,
but it's just that simple.
And this country, this nation was built
on the principles of, they said, in God we trust,
just on the money and all that kinda stuff.
But now, it's the money we trust in
and not God, because if it was God we trust,
this country would not be suffering like it is
because, there's one of my greatest verse, Bible verses
is 2 Chronicles 7, 14
and it say, "if my people who call
by my name shall humble themselves and pray
and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways,
then when I hear from heaven, heal their land
and hear that prayer."
So, as long as we have all this wicked ways and stuff.
The verse before that talked about pestilence
and all this kinda stuff coming on the people,
If they don't turn from their wicked ways,
but if you turn from your wicked ways, I'll heal your land
and that's why our land is sick today.
There's a lot of wickedness in high places
and I'm not gonna get into all that kinda affair,
but wickedness has always existed,
but nothing is stronger than God.
So, you asked me, was there any fear?
My dad, no, we never had burglar bars,
we never stayed up at night, you know, watching the door
or anything like that, so...
Daniell: So, what year did you graduate from high school?
-: '67, 1967.
Daniell: Okay.
And so after you graduated, what did you do then?
-: I went to work, well, of course, went to Lamar University,
went to school there, I went to work at Mobile at the time.
Daniell: You were doing those two at the same time?
-: Some of it, yeah, yeah.
Daniell: And what did you study at the Lamar?
-: Business, my first associate degree
was Industrial Electronics Electricity
and I got a job at Mobile Intellectual Department, you know,
back in those days, Lamar had a technical college
and I recall back then,
I was always studying hard, you know,
and I actually studied.
It was very few black kids doing that in those days,
but I was one of them,
so, I was studying with this white guy named Pitts,
P-I-T-T-S, we studied together,
we did projects together
and I recall every test, even though we had the same project
and we would kinda you know, have most of the same answers.
He would always have a higher grade than me,
always have a higher grade, if I made 85, he'd make a 90,
if made 92, he'd make a 95 or whatever, so--
Daniell: And you studied together?
-: Study together, we had the same project together
and I hate to use this term, we even copied
the same answers together, you know,
we have the same answers,
but you know, so he told me, one day we were talking
and he said, you know, you gon' to fail this class,
I said, what you mean I'm gon' fail,
he not gon' pass you, he was from Leyland,
we befriended each other, you know,
he not gonna pass you Vernon,
so what you mean not gonna pass me?
Well, he's just not gonna pass you.
So, at that time, you know, like I said
my dad carried a pistol, well, I did too,
so, we went in my car
and I said, you see this pistol?
Yeah, man.
I said, if I fail this class,
it's not gonna be a nice over here, you know,
you might wanna scratch that bit, but--
Daniell: We can if you want, if you like--
-: No, you know, in those days, you actually had to
let white people know all the establishment know that,
you know, the buck stops here, I mean, you know, you may do
this to someone else, you may be comfortable doing it,
but, you know, you're not gonna do it to me.
So, while I wasn't really gonna do that, I had to,
I knew that if I told him that,
he would go tell the principal, not the principal,
he'd go tell the instructor.
And sure enough, you know, I passed.
Daniell: Did you start getting at least--
-: I started getting better grades and everything else
because historically, they would give all black students
poor grades, they'd get F's or D'S
or CS, never would they get A's and B's.
And when you know, Lamar University right now
is the premier learning institution in our area.
And there really, the foundation
and the presidency are concerned
about why don't black people embrace this university
anymore than they do, it's because of the history
of the school, it wasn't friendly to us,
it wasn't kind to us.
Theodore Johns had to integrate the college back then
and he was an attorney, Johnson Willard,
they actually had to go to the college
and let the college, it was Lamar College at the time,
let the people know that black people should be able to go
to this college and be treated fairly
and treated properly.
So, I didn't give you a name, his name is Donald Bailey.
I gotta get his name for you, he has a lot of history
about civil rights, you actually do need to,
I'll give you that before you leave, his name is Don' Bailey
Daniell: Thank you.
-: He collects a lot of pictures
and he'll have a lot of stuff you can actually...
He has all that stuff about Lamar.
And when (indistinct) was a white city council person
and when he started helping the black people
the Klu Klux Klan actually put a KKK sign on his yard.
And he's a white city council person (indistinct)
Yeah, yeah, that'd be...
So, even back then when progress has been made
there we're still persons,
in the white community who supported the progress,
who actually took some heat
for doing that kinda thing.
So, and I kinda allude to, you said, you know,
the differences, you know, when I first noticed it,
I noticed it at the high school, and also noticed it
at the university, when, you know, black students,
so they would go off to predominantly black colleges
and universities, you know,
the (indistinct) of the day
and the Texas Selden's of the day and the, you know,
other schools prior reviews, they would go there instead
of going right here to Beaumont,
until Theodore Johns
and Willard, actually went out to make it possible.
But even though they let made it possible,
the instructors were still treating us very poorly.
They could fail you
and nothing would be said and done, yeah.
Daniell: So I wanna jump ahead just really quickly,
so you're talking about Lamar
and it historically being discriminatory
towards black people, once they did let black people attend
the school, you were recognized as part
of their living legends series last year.
-: Yeah.
Daniell: And I know since, of course there've been
a lot of changes and a lot of people of color have gotten
different positions at the university
to make something like that possible.
How did that feel to you being recognized, so long after,
but also by an university that, you know,
where a teacher could fail you if they wanted.
-: You know, even though the university has some teachers
and it was part of the culture of that time,
it still provided me with an opportunity to get a good job.
I had made a good living, I retired, you know, I'm blessed,
God has blessed me more than I could ever think,
so, those were the times then
and I think Daniell, my upbringing
and what my dad gave my brother and my family,
the courage to fight and to fight through adversity.
My brother went to there
and he graduated and he's since retired, he got a good job
from there.
I see an opportunity for all of my niece
and nephews to go to college, so I send them there
because that was then, you have to understand
that the underground railroad
when those people were finding safe Harbor,
it wasn't in black homes, It was some white people
who built homes and built structured walls
and stuff like that to help shelter safe, you know,
and they'd put that life at risk and in danger too.
So, there has always been people who have not always
been black, of other ethnicities who helped black folks
and brown folks and whatever,
so, like I mentioned to you, my dad didn't teach, preach,
being kind was our negativity,
so, even though Lamar was not all it could have been
or should have been then, it was a lot better now.
And it did recognize,
I think there were people who recognize, you know,
we haven't been so nice to folks
but here's a guy, Vernon, who hasn't held it against us,
he continues to support the university because,
he continued to do things in the community because,
and he continues to be an advocate for education because,
so, why I don't look
for accolades and awards and honorariums, it was nice
and I used that as a platform to show people
and let people see that, you know,
even though change may not come as quickly
as you want it to, change does happen.
And, if you look in the rear view mirror
to where you are right now, there's been a lot of change.
So, the kids nowadays, they don't have to worry
about the stuff, the stuff that I went through
and I don't embellish it, I just want them
to understand that, you know,
from this point where you are, you go forward,
you know, you blossom, you bloom where you are.
And you just take advantage of opportunity that exists now,
don't think about the opportunity
that didn't exist back then, so, yeah,
Lamar did recognize me, I did get award,
my job recognized me with a legacy, you know, award.
I just received an award
from the a 100 Black Men for social justice,
the only social justice award to ever be given
in organization study of history, so--
Daniell: Are you the president of the organization?
-: Excuse me.
Daniell: What's your role
with 100 Black Men specifically?
-: I'm the chairman of the Chapter Development Committee,
where our chapter is, you know, any chapter
that wants to come into the organization,
I help get those onboard those chapters.
So, you're not working right now with the city with,
you know, it's called Policemen, being overly criminalizing
black kids in the black community, official oppression,
stuff like that.
So, and I report that kinda stuff
to other chapters into the 100 Black Men's Network,
you know, what I'm doing here in the city
and so, they have said, okay,
Vernon is doing that down there, right next door to Vitor,
well, why can't you guys be doing something else?
So we're gonna give an award to Vernon for his bravery
as a trailblazer for criminal justice reform.
So, you know, here in the city of Beaumont,
I tried to get the police department
and city council to create a police review board,
so that when a policeman does something there's a review
of it, why did you do it?
What prompted you to do it?
In your mind that you thought you should
and let's make sure that it doesn't happen again,
so they decided not to do review board,
but they did an advisory board.
And I kinda reported that out,
so there's some change in the police department,
you know how they treat African Americans
and people of color.
So, your original question, how do I feel about Lamar?
Lamar is a great institution,
It's an institution of higher learning
and what you do, you take the good and you go with the good
and quit thinking about, you know, the bad.
-: The bad didn't breed anything but bad, yeah, yeah,
I really try to be, Daniell, an agent of positive change
and impact people.
My wife and I created a scholarship at Lamar,
we endowed a scholarship in education at Lamar
and I like to show people that, you know,
if you want positive change,
you gotta be the change you wanna see.
You just can't say, okay, y'all go change it,
you gotta be part of that change.
So, I'm invested in this community, I'm invested in change,
I'm invested in the civil rights of all people,
you know, black, brown, whatever color.
Daniell: What year did you create that scholarship?
-: I think we did that in 2012 maybe,
14 somewhere along there.
And we, you know, we continued to put money into it, yeap
and amusingly, she's gonna...
We'll have a scholarship then every year,
where you meet your, personally receive your scholarship.
Every year, we meet a white student.
Daniell: What do you think about that?
-: I mean, it's great, I mean, it's about education.
It's about education,
education is what impacts and change lives, education.
If someone else had gotten it, no matter who
and got the education, that's what change life.
See, the word edu means you bring out of you
what saying, it's not, education is not putting in you,
It's not, it doesn't put anything in you.
If you look at the word of education,
it means to bring out of you what's there,
so I wanna bring out of that person the best that's
in that person, black, white or brown, whatever.
So, that's what scholarship does, bring out the best in you,
yeah.
Daniell: So, I wanna go back a little bit really quickly
and talk about the wars
and, you know, the wars that US was involved in--
-: The what?
Daniell: Wars, that the us was involved
in while you were coming of age,
you said at least on your dad's side,
you have a lot of uncles
and you have three brothers, right?
-: I have three brothers and three sisters.
Daniell: Did any of them, did any of your brothers,
were they drafted into it?
-: None of my family, immediate family went to the military.
Daniell: Okay.
-: I would hate to say,
I would not like to sound like use the word hate,
I would not like to say that I called the same phrase
that Muhammad Ali called it,
but we have some real battles here.
So, I just choose to pick my battles on this ground, yeah.
I did not believe in the Vietnam Conflict,
I was going to college at the time
and I had to, yeah...
College distinction of not having to go,
but, I really don't think I would've gone,
In fact, I know, I would not have gone,
I would probably have gone to Canada somewhere
because, you have to understand during that time
and just shortly after that time, Dr. King got killed,
Malcolm X had been killed,
shortly after that, Kennedy got killed,
so, it was very clear to me
that we had more problems here
in the United States than anyone had overseas.
And I was already cognizant of that fact during that time,
even though my dad did sit down across the table from me
and did talk about it.
We did have those kinda conversations in those times,
I just graduated from high school in 67.
I remember I was at Lamar
in 68, when Dr. King was assassinated.
And I think we went to the Rec Hall
and tore it up I think, we were very angry,
very angry, when he got killed, so, it came across
and we didn't like it at all, so, no,
that was a major conflict war going on at the time
and none of my folks, none of my parents, not his brothers
that I can recall went to the military.
Now there are some kids that went to the military,
but none of my immediate family,
nor my uncles went to military.
Daniell: What about your, I guess, perceptions
of how those wars or those conflicts affected
the black community at that time?
Were a lot of people that you knew, you know,
families that you knew.
-: I knew several of my classmates went to war.
I said they went, you know, some of them didn't come back,
even today and I see the impact
that the war has had on them, It took a lot of their,
part of their life away, it impacted a hell,
you know, you have the Agent Orange
and the P-S-T-S thing, so very few people,
if any, can I point to that went to the military
in those days, came out better than they went,
we have a few people here in this area now, one or two,
you may have heard of, General Brailsford,
he was a person that went to the military,
but he was in, you know, had a high rank and all.
The military is just like a lot of other places and things,
I always pick a few people that let slip through, you know,
and they'll say, okay, you know, this guy can do it,
why don't you come on in and do it?
But the military has not ever been our friend,
everything I've read, everything I've seen,
has never been our friend,
so, I wasn't gonna be his friend,
I wasn't gonna encourage anybody to be his friend.
It's changed a little bit today,
a young person can get an education
and go into the military
and be in a higher ranking where they won't have to go
to the frontline and things like that,
but, back in those days, I saw no benefit going
to the military.
Daniell: So, I wanna go back to you starting work,
you said you worked in Industrial Electronics,
which company?
-: Mobile Oil Refinery.
Daniell: Can you tell me about some of that?
So, you would have started that in 68.
-: No, I was started there in 71, yeah.
Daniell: So after you finished at Lamar?
-: Yes.
Daniell: Can you tell me about that?
-: Well, I went to the Electrical Department IBEW
and you have to understand, unions are created
to do one thing, one thing only
from our view, keep blacks out of it.
So, I was one of the first persons
in the Electrical Department, I, along with another guy,
two other guys--
Daniell: One of the first black workers there?
-: Yes, in the Electrical Department.
And understanding that they didn't want me
in the Electrical Department
or the other guy at the electrical department,
so I would not get the same type of training
'cause we were apprentice, I would not get the same kind
of training in anything else
and I recall one day, this was about a year and a half
into the training program.
I went to work there in 70, worked in labor for a few years
and went into process, so that's gonna put me
about 74 or 75, so now, I'm in Electrical Department
in the training department, in the training.
So, you have to depend
on the first class to give you the training need to go
to the next level, you know, six months,
12 months, 18, whatever.
So, in every phase you have to take a test
to show your proficiency.
-: Well, they knew if they keep training me,
one of these days I'm gonna be first class,
so, the object was, let's make sure he
didn't become a first class, get him out of the department
'cause it was an all white department
and they didn't want any blacks in it,
they road in their own vehicles, you know,
it wasn't part of the IBEW, IBEW, not part of OCAW,
you have, OCAW, All Chemicals
and Atomic Workers and IBEW,
a National Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
They would like to pre-bid on us, IBEW, electrical workers,
they ate together, they had their own vehicle,
they didn't ride with OCAW, they were two different unions.
Well, I didn't belong to IBEW,
I would not join a union,
I didn't think I needed to because the first thing,
they didn't have my best interests at heart
and I wasn't gonna give them money to not to protect me
and then they weren't training me like they should have,
so, I'm kinda in this quandaries,
but, I'm naive, I'm gonna, you know, make it through.
So, one day...
and when they would go, I didn't smoke
and most of those guys smoked, so, when they would go smoke,
me being an apprentice, I couldn't do anything at work,
so I just, wait till they come from their smoke break
and I've just been waiting
and many times they'll go right directly back to the job
and I have to leave the shack or the rest area
and find them back on the job,
and they'd be there working
and they didn't tell me, you know, they didn't have...
we didn't have radios and things those days.
So, after about a few weeks, I get this call from lunch,
do not put your tools back on after lunch.
Really? Yeah, you need to go see department head.
So, what's that about?
Well, just after lunch, just go see the department head,
so, there's one guy who like I mentioned,
there's always somebody who befriends you,
there's one guy named, George Alexander.
He was a white guy, I had worked with him before
and I wasn't working him with him then,
I was working with another individual,
so, before going back to lunch, he said,
Vernon, you're not going back?
I said, no, they want me to go see Bill,
for what? I said, I don't know.
He said, and he used some profanity,
he said, I'm no good
and so, you know, they're getting ready to do you,
so, I said, well, y'all just said, you know,
all I can do is, go see him. So he said, I'mma go with you
and he went with me
and I knocked on Bill's door
and there was Bill Pew, knocked on his door
and George said, wait out here Vernon,
I'm gonna talk to him first.
So, George went in and talked to him
and I heard him saying something about the guy
that I was working with at the tower
and that was Roy Chumley.
He said, that Roy Chumley is no good and so Bill
and you know that, and Vernon, you know,
Vernon, hadn't done anything and say...
So, you just let me know what I need to do,
so I went in, so just what Bill says, Vernon,
I understand that you don't report back to the job.
I said, what you mean?
He said, well, I understand that you go,
be sitting in the shack and they're out there working
and they have to wait for you to come back to the job.
And I said, well, Bill, I said, I don't smoke
and I'm an apprentice, I can't work by myself.
I said, so, when they leave, I have to go back to the shack
until they come back.
So, I said, but if, you don't think I'm doing my job
just talk to George,
or if you won't manage properly, you don't have to fire me,
I said I'll quit 'cause I'm not going to subject myself
to this type of treatment.
I said, I know what I'm doing, I'm trying to do my job,
so, if you don't think I'm doing it, I said,
just let me know
and I'll quit.
It struck him that I had that kinda courage
in the face of that kinda adversity.
He said, I had an education,
he says, what do you think about planning?
I said, what do you mean? So, would you like to go
into management?
I say, yes I would,
so he picked up the phone
and said, call your wife, tell her you got your foot
in the door
and from that point on I was in management
till the day I retired.
And so that adversity, it was turned an opportunity,
but all through my career there were the things like that,
you know,
I was the planning for that department,
which meant I was the planner
for the very people who didn't like me, the electricians.
So, I had to plan the jobs that they had to do,
It was kinda like, I mean, it's like pouring salt
in the wound, I mean, it was...
but, I was, you know, I'm not gonna say
I was the Jackie Robinson of those days, I said,
but it was...
I don't really believe that anybody else could have done
that because, I knew they didn't like me,
but I had to really work in that environment.
-: So I had to plan for them
and like I mentioned to you, there's always someone,
so I had to plan jobs for them, for the electrical people
and the instrument people.
Well, there was an instrument guy,
he was invalid, he was handicap.
(indistinct)
He was a handicap,
so he worked in his shop
and his shop place was right next
to the department manager's place, Bill's place
and so he would see everybody going in to Bills
and he would hear them having conversations.
So, everyday I would go to the planning
and give these guys their jobs
and Boe, his name was, Boe Brammer,
he would hear conversations that they would have with him,
that were ridiculing me in so many words.
So, one day I was going through the shop
and he said, Vernon, I was kinda happy, he said, Vernon,
come in and talk to me.
So what he said, you're around here happy
and I want you to know these guys are plotting
against you every day to hurt you
and make sure you lose your job and get you demoted.
And these are words I told myself,
I said, Boe, you know, I work hard, I try to do my best
to take care of the situations, I said,
but whenever something gets too big for me
I turn it over to God,
I said, I love turning things over
'cause when He takes over, I'll be okay
and they gonna be worse for them.
And we became two of the closest, you know, friends,
he kept advocating for me
and he was a handicap guy, just a shop worker.
And I'm telling you this, Daniell
because all along my life,
there have been people in places that have, you know,
them in the right place at the right time
to help me move forward
and help move our race forward, It's not just me,
but there have always been people
to help move the race forward,
even though we've had our challenges and our battles,
but I've had a lot of the things
that happened right there on the job,
you know, there was one time, you know,
I'm no longer a planner now, I'm into the late 90's
and you go from planning to foreman, to supervisor
and each time you have to get an evaluation that gives you,
gives them reason to give you more money, more promotion.
So, I was getting ready to have another promotion
and this guy was evaluating me
and the evaluation just didn't sound like me,
so, he's my manager, so I stood up, what are you doing?
I said, that's not me, I'm not gonna listen to this.
What do you mean?
I said, I'm not gonna listen to this evaluation of me,
when I know it's not my performance,
and so, all you're trying to do is prevent me
from getting my next promotion,
So, I'm not gonna sit here and listen to it.
I said, I want you to get your manager down,
I said, by the way, what was your evaluation?
How'd you do?
What do you mean?
I said, if you did well and I'm working for you,
evidently I did well also, how can I do well?
Not do well and you do well?
I say, your job is really to promote me and develop me,
so I need to talk to your manager, so...
What you mean talk to--
I said, this interview is over with,
I need to talk to the manager.
What's up?
What do you want to do that for?
I said, tomorrow we finish this interview
with your manager, you and I
(laughs)
and that flipped the whole script.
So, the manager said, well,
we're gonna have to have a discussion,
I said, well, this is what I tell you,
either you discuss this now with me,
or you discuss with someone out of this refinery.
I said, because I'm not gonna allow you not to promote me.
I said, the next discussion you're gonna have is going
to be when it turn outs, I'm not threatening you, I said,
but obviously you don't understand,
I'm not gonna allow you not to promote me,
It's not gonna happen.
So, managers have managers meetings,
which happen once a month, so we'll get back with you.
Okay, I immediately went to Houston,
got an attorney, told them what was happening,
It was quite a sum of money, I had to pay him.
So he said, I know what they're doing over there.
Yada, yada, yada.
So I said, okay, in order for me to take your case
you ought to give me this sum of money?
I said, okay, not a problem,
so I had my checkbook with me
and so I said, now what's your next step?
He said, I'm gonna write them a letter
and ask them, you know, for justification, you know,
whatever you decide to do,
but in a way he wrote the letter
and I basically sued them.
I'm a manager, suing my company, which was Mobile,
but that managers meeting never happened,
I got a call back in
and said, okay, you promoted,
(laughs)
So, you know, all along my career,
even though I had a better job, you know, in management,
they've always been people like the Vernon Durden
of the world, who have had to do things,
so that other people can kinda come on through the system
because they know that if they don't do the quote unquote,
right thing, they have to pay, yeah.
And I don't know how many people you've talked to,
but most of us have had to threaten
or sue the very institutions that we work for
and all to make it better for someone else.
I had a restaurant
and even when I was working at the refinery,
I had a restaurant called J Marie's,
I don't know if you remember,
but State Firm, no, All State had just had this big lawsuit
because there were no black agents in California
and the group of people got together,
they could always work,
but they couldn't have their own agency.
So, I was at my restaurant one day and this guy comes in
and says, my neighbor across the street
from me was an agent.
So, this guy comes in with the district manager
and they came in and say, look, we'd like
to give you an insurance agency.
I said, really?
He said, yeah, he said, we're gonna be straight upfront
with you,
our company has not been that well with black people
and you know, you are successful, you know,
you got this business
and I said, yeah man,
but I work at Mobile right now
and I'd say, I make a pretty good salary.
So he said, we can match it
and within a year's or two time, you'll be double that.
So, I had that discussion with my wife, you know,
asked them how they could do it.
What they do is, they give you an agency
and they take customers from several different agencies
and give them to you, give you a base to build your salary.
So, that's what they were gonna do.
Is that rain? That's rain.
Anyway,
but I didn't do it, I ended up...
but, to my point, all through history
and through our tapestry of civil rights,
there have been people we had to sue.
So yeah, I took my company on head on
and further on it, further on in my career,
even after that, I'm a manager, now getting ready to,
you know, doing good.
They called me one day because I'm still active on the site
on the plant, I'm still telling people, you know,
you do this, you know, go to school, don't take this,
you know, keep documents.
Every time I would go for an interview,
I had a micro recorder, I'd take a boot
and I crossed my leg, had my recorder, had it right there
and I recorded every evaluation, every evaluation,
so when I went to this attorney,
I had all my little micro cassettes.
I said, listen to this, you know, how can they say that?
They said this in evaluation?
He said, man you're prepared
I always crossed my leg like this.
So, you know, you may be sitting there, so,
and it was voice activated,
so when they stopped talking, it stopped.
I still got those tapes at home, you know,
I often thought about listening to some of them, you know,
sometime I just, I'm amazed at the letters I've written
to managers and stuff, to HR, to make them change.
I recall that when they have turnarounds
they would put everybody no matter what you're status was
on a turnaround.
Well, I'm an abbott health, I'm very health conscious,
don't smoke, don't drink, you know,
don't eat certain things, you know, anyway,
I also understand my circadian rhythm,
how I may be able to function,
I can't function at night, I just can't.
So, they put me on nights
because of my activity on the plant, you know,
trying to make sure people get promoted
and I was advocating for them,
and I see all the promotions, I go in
and say, why are you overlooking such and such a person?
So, then they would end up temporarily promoting them,
then end up promoting them.
So, every little opportunity they could to try to, you know,
stick me with something
or hurt me and hold me back,
so they put me on nights.
The first few nights, I'm jogging
and couldn't hardly make it,
so I told the guys, I said, look, I'm going to my office,
I'mma have my phone next to me, my radio next to me,
if there's an emergency, call me, otherwise,
I'm going to sleep.
Vernon, you can't do that man, you'll get us all in trouble.
I said, I'm going to my office, I'm going to sleep,
so after the turnaround was over, they called everybody in.
So Vernon, I understand that they couldn't find you
at nights, I said, so, was there a problem? No,
but they said they couldn't find you at nights.
I said, yeah, I went to my office,
Why didn't you stay on a unit?
I said, I went to my office, went to sleep.
So now he's, you went off and went to sleep?
I say, I went to rest because I can't operate at night,
I said, just so we're...
and I got my recorder, I said, just so we're clear here,
you said I had to be out here on nights.
I place my health and safety before anything,
I said, we swap pumps when they run too long,
we shut them down so that they don't run too long.
I said, I can't operate at night, so I know what's best
for me and what's best for my safety
and what's best for the safety of this refinery.
I said so, I took myself out of the equation,
I said, furthermore, going forward, if you want me to work
on a turnaround don't put me on nights, I'm not gonna work.
How can you tell me you're not gonna work on nights?
I said, I'm telling you now, I do not work nights,
If you have days, I'd be glad to work any days you have,
I will not work nights.
I don't know if I can accept that Vernon,
I said, well, I'm telling you, I'm not gonna work nights,
I'm telling you I will work days,
I'm not saying I won't work,
I'm saying I will not work nights.
It's not good for my health, it's not good for my safety,
I said, so I'm not working nights.
And I didn't.
And then further on,
they were working people 16 to 20 hours a day
on the turnarounds.
Some of the same conversation, I was over the contractors,
so I told them the same thing, I said look,
I don't want you to working anybody over 14, 16 hours a day.
Well, what about getting this work done?
I say, either hire more people, I'll find a way
to give these people rest,
so there will be no more continuous...
There were people working 30 days without a day off.
I said there would be no more continuous work
until the end of the turnaround.
So, they made a rule out there, you can only work
so many straight days without having a days off.
So, that's the ruling that they are following right now.
Daniell: And this, the work that a lot
of people are doing is pretty dangerous?
-: It is dangerous,
but you cannot continue working without a break
and have the same level of attentiveness
and be, you know, as sharp, you're gonna start getting more
and more tired and less focused, so yeah.
So, even though they don't say it, the refinery,
even though in certain little ways,
they give you a little award,
they give you a little honorarium
or something to say, yeah,
we're not gonna say you was right,
but we're just gonna give you this
and let you know that we know you were right, you know,
and it's not about being right, Daniell,
it's just about living in such a way
that you can be proud of what you did.
And it would be impactful, you know,
on someone else, another person, another generation,
another race or whatever.
So, that's kinda why I live today,
that's what I believe in
and not only me, but there are a lot of folks, you know,
out in the world, you know, black, brown, white, whatever
that believe that way too,
to actually understand that there will be consequences.
And that change doesn't happen without consequences
and without some pain.
And, but they're willing to take the pain
and suffer the consequences.
Had, Dr. King, had Muhammad Ali, had those people not
understood the consequences of their decisions,
this world would not be a better place than it is
because you gotta understand, when Dr. King said,
"I might not get to the mountain top,
but I've seen."
What he was talking about,
one day there would be a person who has the highest position
in this land, in this country, he didn't see it,
but you and I did.
When president Barack Obama got elected as president
and you have to understand, there we're not enough
black people registered to elect him,
you do know that, right?
If he had just depended on the black popular vote,
he never would've got it.
So, there have always been people who understood
that this nation needs to change
and the consequences of it.
Now, there's some consequences he's suffering now,
but change has happened.
And we may see the next change very shortly
with Hillary Clinton, you never thought
that it would happen this quickly.
I talk to kids all the time
and I talk to, you know, a lot of folks,
President Barack Obama got elected in 2008,
that was eight years ago.
Two years before that 2006, there were some kids born,
2006 to now it's 10 years,
those kids are in the fourth and fifth grade,
they never seen anything about a black president,
they never seen anything but a black president.
So, as far as they're concerned, I can be president.
There's been some consequences, you know,
he's had to pay a price, you know, he's greying
and he's been called a liar, The Supreme Court,
The Congress, they're voting against him,
they're blocking a lot of his stuff,
but change has happened.
There are kids who never seen anything,
but a black president, secretary of state,
kids never seen anything but that.
So, where I've seen four or five presidents
and I only saw one black one,
they've never seen anything but a black president.
Where I've seen, you know, 15 to 20 professional coaches
of professional football, they seen three
or four black head coaches of professional football.
And where you see all the time, black news commentators
and all this kinda stuff.
Before, you know, in my earlier days, I never did see that,
so change does happen even in the midst
of what we think is a lot of turmoil.
The very fact that some kids have never seen anything
but a black president
or heard anything but a black president, that's huge.
That's huge, you know, when I was coming up, kids say
what do you want to be? I wanna be a race car driver.
I wanna be a football player.
Now the kids say, I wanna be a president.
30 years ago, you know, a kid gets slapped across the head,
said, Boris now what you talking about be president?
Not today, I wanna be a head coach,
that's change, that's why I do what I do.
So that one kid can say, hey, I wanna be the head
of this organization, I wanna be an FBI agent,
I wanna be head of CIA.
Did you know that the head of the FBI
in this district is a black man?
The Eastern district, he be black.
(laughing)
Yeah.
Daniell: Well, we can start wrapping up.
Do you have any specific questions that you wanna ask?
Interviewer: Actually one, Mr. Vernon,
you know, you've been here
for a while in this town, in this region
and one thing that we're trying to accomplish
with this project, is to look at history of black folks
and brown folks and how they'd come together too
and I know one thing that's happened in the last couple
of decades is a huge influx of immigrants.
So, I wonder what the challenges you've seen
to unify people of color, of different backgrounds
Mexican Americans, Black Americans,
and how do we prevent fracture?
Have you seen people come together?
Or what are the challenges in coming together
in this town, in this region, in this town?
-: Yeah, you know, you talked to a few people earlier
and some of them were kinda guarded
in how they felt, they fit into this tapestry of change
and coming together.
We gotta be careful about propaganda,
how you interpret what is really best for the country
and community versus what is best
for your own ethnicity or race.
And I think, the challenge we have to understand is,
we are all better when we come together.
I think, the white race is threatened,
I really believe they feel threatened,
so they have to create fear.
So, if they can create fear in the brown race
or they can create fear in the black race, okay,
If you don't watch it, these people gon' do that...
if they can create that fear, they can paralyze you
because I don't know if you know how the brain works,
but once that fear chemical is released in your brain,
you can't analyze anymore.
So, they wanna control all your actions,
so, the challenge we have is that we don't allow
the people who are fearful to create fear in us
because once they do, they can control you
and that's our biggest challenge.
I see so much similarities between our journey, the blacks
and the browns, I see so much similarity
and our challenge,
we have to be careful that we aren't pitted
against each other based on fear,
because, what we owe to the accomplishments
and success of this entire country is the fact
that we took all folks, whatever they had to bring
to the table,
and we use it for the betterment.
I'm gonna be better when I embrace you,
I'm not gonna be better when I push you away.
This entire country is gonna be better when
they embraced everybody.
And the truth of the matter is,
they want to create fear,
so that you don't understand that you're better together,
they wanna keep you separated
because they are fearful of losing their position,
and it's just, it's not that if they're gonna lose it,
they are going to lose it
because the population is browning, it's not whitening,
it's browning and they know this, I say they,
the people who feel they're in control,
that percentage whoever you wanna call them?
So, the only tool they have now is fear,
that's the only tool that they have.
They can't stop babies from being born,
they can't drop the bomb on just in the United States
and just kill all black and all brown
without killing white too,
they can't poison the water because the water is in one...
everybody's gonna be drinking it,
so, the only tool they have is fear.
That's what Congress uses.
That's what the KKK uses.
That's what parents use against kids.
That's what instructors use against students, it's fear,
so, If they can use anything to keep us from progress
and as a nation, which they are using, is only fear.
And if we can understand that God is not a God of fear
and this nation was built on really immigrants,
I don't care if you call them illegal or what, no one came
in legally.
When they came, how they came here, you know,
it was all illegal
and some kinda way they got status, easier, quicker,
whatever, so now they're trying to, okay,
if we keep letting these people...
if we just keep them illegal
at least we can hold this few million off the number
or hundreds, you know, we can keep this,
then that way we can survive a little bit longer,
but If we ever open that flood gate, you know, we're doomed,
and what the majority of population don't understand is,
we'll all be better because of it,
we'll all be better.
I have a guy from Guatemala living on my property,
been with me for about 20 years,
we kinda looked at earlier
and you brought up a good segue.
I'm a better person because of him, everything that I do,
my whole perception of what family is about.
I do horses and a guy came one day and I came,
he came out and got my horse and took it, you know,
take my saddle and everything off
and this white guy who was also at my farm
was riding with me and he said, hey boy, come get my horse,
so, I said, wait a minute, his name is not boy,
his name is Alex,
either you refer to him as Alex,
started sounding like my dad,
you refer to him as Alex,
or you're not welcome here.
So, I will tell you that nobody that I care more about
and trust more than Alex.
I travel quite a bit, he has the keys to my home,
my car, he has access to everything I have,
I'm completely confident that when I'm away
and he's in charge, everything's okay.
And on a grand scale, we need to be completely confident
that when we're away and all these other people
whoever they are, are here, they're in charge
and they'll do just as well
or better than us.
And you're saying what the challenge is,
for us to understand that we'll be better,
this country would be better.
Each individual would be better.
Our economy would be better.
Our relations would be better
if we embrace all of ethnicities
and just get away from the fear.
Daniell: Well, I wanna thank you
for talking with us today,
Is there anything that you'd like to end with?
-: I think that was appropriate in that, you know,
we are better, you know, you hear these cliches
all the time, we're better together, you know,
we're stronger, you know, there's no I in team,
you know, all that kinda stuff,
but the bottom line is this, we are better together.
We are going to be a nation that's gonna survive
because we embrace, that's the way we got here.
This country was formed with arms open rather
than arms closed
and we just need to embrace...
We need to embrace ethnicities
because we'd be better for it.
Daniell: Well, thank you so much,
we appreciate you talking with us today.
-: Okay, you're welcome.