-: Okay.
This is Ian [Inaudible] With the University
of North Texas, I'm sitting here with TaraLynn
Hunter, we are doing this for the oral history
department at UNT to get TaraLynn's
sort of reminiscences and thoughts on her
involvement in Denton as it relates
to the fracking controversy and stuff like that.
So let's just start real quick with basic
background info, as much as you want to share
on kind of where you come from, how you
wound up in Denton, and I am also interested
in knowing how you came to be as environmentally
active and conscious as you are.
-: Okay, sure.
Yeah, I came to Denton to sing at the
University here to study music at UNT.
And then shortly after I arrived I started having
a lot of breathing issues, asthma, adult asthma.
And I've lived all over the world, because
I grew up as a military brat, and I had never
dealt with it, especially at these levels before.
To where it was like regular trips to the ER,
daily asthma treatments, it was challenging
to sing, to do what I came here to do.
So yeah, a lot of different things kind of
coincided at the same time.
I was in the university doing the occupy
Wall Street movement, so there are kids camped
out all over campus, then people were
organizing on a daily basis.
And I think what that movement did was
bring people from a lot of different
seemingly disparate issues and teach us about
our inner sectionality amongst all those issues.
So there was just daily meetings about
environmental issues, about human rights
issues, about renter's rights issues.
Just a myriad of things going on in our city,
and from there the occupy folks organized
a meeting with the city council
and met with them regarding issues.
And one of the issues that came to the surface
was hydraulic fracturing, how they were
fracturing underneath our school, how they were
fracking close to neighborhoods and hospitals,
McKenna Park, all these places.
So as I was dealing with my own breathing
issues, I was also learning these
environmental problems in our city.
And then from there I kind of did more
research on my own and read up on it,
and turns out there's 500 wells in our
city limits, so it was a lot of things.
But I think just growing up all over the world
with the military, you see a lot of different
places in the world, you see a lot of different
ways of life and ways of interacting with the environment.
I grew up as a child in Germany, and litter
was not a problem where I lived because people
were very intentional very early on about
recycling and so then I lived in Hawaii for a
while, which is just paradise and you become
really keenly aware of how precious these
resources are and how fragile an ecosystem
can be in the face of the oil and gas industry.
So I think that I always kind of saw that
growing up, but it just kind of came to a
head with the local issue at hand.
So yeah, that's how I got involved.
-: So do you think that... was it like your
involvement with occupy that kind of started
making you, getting you into the sort of
organizing mode that you wound up exerting
later with frack free Denton, or is
there more to it than that?
-: Yeah, no, I think that's part of it.
I think you just meet people in your community.
I think that it was just my personal involvement
was just from the natural relationships that grew
out of working together to try to solve problems.
So from occupy, I met folks who are fighting
the Keystone XL pipeline that was coming
through East Texas, so there was a months and
months long tree sit that happens in East Texas.
One thing that I noticed there was that it
wasn't split down political party lines,
it was people who had formerly been in the
oil and gas industry who now had this pipeline
coming through their land and were housing
students from UNT specifically to come and
do tree sits out on their land or to do a protest
out on their land and organize from their
spaces so that they could fight this pipeline.
And I think that it just teaches you a lot about
empathy and about where our common ground is.
And jumping ahead a little bit, I think I saw
that even with this campaign when we were
phone banking, when we were knocking doors
and we were block walking, we would approach
people who fracked for a living who were
completely on the side of banning it within
the city limits because they knew firsthand
the chemicals involved, the dangers involved.
And even though that's how they were making
their living, they certainly didn't want it
on their children's school campuses, as is
the case at [Inaudible] High School.
They don't want it across the street from
the park where their kids are breathing and
playing because they know firsthand.
So I was very surprised how much environmental
issues, if we just get to the heart of it,
it's our air, it's our water, it's just
basic human rights like that that we all need.
So I think that movement really...
Yeah the [Inaudible] Blockade that happened
out there in East Texas was a big influential
factor, because yeah, those relationships
coming out of Denton were really powerful
and those friendships that we made.
So then when people came back from East Texas
from that movement, we were all still in Denton,
a lot of folks had graduated, and were then
working with people like [Inaudible], but
also folks from the community like Cathy McMullen.
And also, moms from the neighborhoods.
The moms that had bought their first home
in vintage neighborhood and were told that
the equipment behind your house is just...
That's just a water storage tank.
And then later when their kids have asthma
from breathing in silica dust and their house
has a crack in its new foundation, then they
found out that it's fracking behind the house.
So I think these were people who were doing their
due diligence to try to find out what am I buying?
And the disclosure laws were not in place
to really protect people and so when we started
frack free Denton, it was kind of an evolution
out of not only the occupy movement, but also
those people who had been involved with occupy
joining up with professors, joining up with the
Denton drilling awareness group, which is a local
board of people that had been working on set back
issues and different ways to regulate fracking.
And that was led by also people who'd been
working on environmental issues in
the town for decades.
So it was just a community effort, in the end.
It was moms, it was students, it was volunteers,
it was just everybody from all walks of life
kind of joined in in the end.
-: Yeah.
Walk me through a little bit what it was like
when... or how it came to be that basically
the inception of the ballot initiative
and that becoming the idea that the town
could actually ban fracking outright was
not only an option but something that
you all decided needed to be done.
-: Yeah.
I will say that I was not initially one of the
people that was really convinced that a
ban was the best way to go.
We had long nights and lots and lots of
meetings about which way to go.
And I think what it came down to is once
we saw the harm that was being done
specifically in vintage neighborhood,
and once we had those moms on our side,
if you walk through that neighborhood,
you'll see with your own eyes how absurd it is.
It is the most ridiculous unsafe situation
that I have ever seen.
It is frack wells across the street from homes.
All they've done is put up a wall around it.
Just change the aesthetics a little bit.
Right behind there is a frack well that
is releasing toxins all the time,
these kids are breathing it in.
It was so absurd.
What we were able to not do I guess, with
regulations, how little safety was actually
in our control with regulations.
So because of that, yeah, I think that no one
just wakes up as an activist, you know what I mean?
You were pushed and you were pushed,
and you were pushed to your breaking point
by the oil and gas industry, and that is when
you have to say we are drawing a line in the sand
and we're not going to take it anymore.
And that's I think how we got there.
We got pushed to that point.
So yeah, and at the same time I couldn't breathe.
We were fighting for our own life, our own air.
So I think the health problems, the cancer rates,
it just was a myriad of things.
But I think we just saw how little could be
done with regulations, so a ban seemed the
way to go, and it was Cathy McMullen that started
the petition to get the ban on the ballot.
I think we needed 500 signatures and we got 2000.
Just to show how much support there was.
And at that point, it went in front of the
city council, they could have passed it right
then, but instead they passed it onto the voters.
And then the voters spoke, and overwhelmingly
voted to ban fracking in the city.
-: Going back to the lead up to the election
itself, you're credited with being a bit
of a shaker and a mover, kind of getting
everything organized for frack free Denton.
Actually, didn't you come up with
the name frack free Denton?
I think [Inaudible] Said you did, [Inaudible].
-: I don't know.
(laughs)
-: All right, well either way.
-: It's possible.
-: Either way you've been cited elsewhere
as really being one of the people
who really helped push the actual physical
getting the people together, getting everything
organized, making everything happen.
What put you there?
Did you just take that banner up because
you've felt very strong about it, or did you
just kind of fall into it?
-: No, Cathy McMullen asked me specifically
if I could coordinate the volunteers.
So I just started and she's a lady that
you want to follow, she's strong woman.
We did need organizing.
We really needed organizing.
So yeah, I just dove in.
I can credit some of the success to the
folks at Texas campaign for the environment.
I went down there one day and they basically
just showed me how to map out a city
and break it down into small block walking maps
for volunteers, how to keep stats on each
person that you come in contact with
door knocking, and I had no experience volunteer
coordinating for a campaign at that level.
but I had other experience, yeah.
I had other life experience so yeah, I just dove
in and it was a lot of learning as we went
and I think the volunteers were amazing.
There was this core group of about 50
people and everyone was so energized and
they did all this grunt work of covering
every door in Denton.
I think once we looked at our final map,
we had covered about a little over 90% of
the city with some face-to-face contact.
Either we had handed a flyer to that door,
we had knocked that door and had a conversation,
a door hanger had gone on that door, something.
Over 90% of the city had been walked
by about 50 people, and it was incredible.
Yeah, I guess to answer your question, it was
a collective drive that was moving.
I mean, talk about a movement.
You could feel the city was waking up.
People were being educated, people were
coming to understand the issue.
When I first moved to Denton, no one knew what
fracking was, even though it was all around us
people weren't talking about it on the streets.
So you started to see the yard signs go up
and you started seeing bumper stickers
and you started feeling that message moving
across the city in a really powerful way.
So it propelled itself.
When Cathy started it, I was so happy to be
brought on board, and then I will tell you
I didn't even own a car at the time.
I owned a car, I didn't own a working car.
(laughs)
So I was doing that on my bicycle, I was
biking to the Green House Restaurant,
who supported us so much.
I was biking there with posters and flyers
on my bicycle, biking to and from campus,
just all over the place.
I had this ratty old laptop, it was like
we were working with sticks and stones.
Really, a lot of the work was just done
on paper and in person, which is astonishing
when you think about the amount of money, that
the oil and gas industry poured into the city.
If you were around at that time you would've
seen semis going by with billboards,
pro fracking billboards on the side.
They would just hire these stinky trucks to drive
around town, ironically, with just these big
billboards on it that were pro fracking billboards,
they rented billboards all around town.
I don't even own a television, so I would go
over to a friend's house, the TV would be on,
and it would just be like inundated
with these pro fracking ads.
We were just bombarded.
Which I will say had the city council
just passed it then, which they absolutely
had the support to do because we overflowed
that chamber with hundreds and hundreds of
people that came to speak for the ban.
They could've saved the city all that hassle.
They could've saved us having to have those
semis coming down the street, they could've
saved the volunteers from getting death threats
from the industry, but side note.
Could have saved us a lot of trouble and work.
But that's okay, I'm glad that the
vote is on the record.
-: Walk me through election night.
What was that like?
-: It was like 10 New Year's Eves thrown into one.
It was just so happy.
It's like the happiness that comes when
you have at the end of a marathon.
It's emotional to talk about.
-: I can imagine.
-: Yeah.
-: What were you doing the day of the election,
kind of leading up to all that?
-: It was pouring rain, so the night before
the election we were all piled in the Greenhouse
with all the volunteers, everybody was there.
This was after we had block walked and block
walked and talked to people and just done
everything that we possibly could, talked to
every person we possibly knew, and we were tired,
and it was going to pour rain in the morning.
And I had these volunteers, some of them were in
their late 80s, and everyone was just the plan
was wear ponchos, go out to all the polling sites.
The reason we had to do that was because
the industry had paid people to go to all the
polling stations and spread misinformation
and tell them things like... see, because
at that point I think they knew.
They knew they were up against...
They knew they had a battle on their hands
because otherwise they wouldn't have hired
people to go confuse people at the ballot.
They were telling people oh, if you're
against fracking, then vote no.
And it was if you were for the ban, vote yes.
So it was like this language confusion,
the ballot wording, so we had people,
we had volunteers at every polling station
across the whole city sharing the ballot
wording with people, the actual wording
that they were about to see, and explain to them
if you wish to vote this way, this is the way,
if you wish to vote this way, this.
So we needed those people out there explaining
that and combating misinformation war.
So they did.
These brave, beautiful souls went out there
in the freezing cold rain, held signs, smiled.
A friend had let me borrow a van that day.
Actually, Dr. Murphy, the jazz professor
here, his daughter was super helpful.
They all were, the whole family was.
He let me borrow his van that day,
and I was just driving around to deliver
warm socks and dry clothes and coffee to people
and more flyers as people would run out
at the different polling stations, checking in
with folks, making sure that they had warm
gloves, because it was freezing cold.
I remember it was awful.
And then I was standing at the polling stations
passing out flyers and stuff too.
That went on from the crack of dawn like
seven in the morning until about nine o'clock,
9:30 I guess, it was after dark I know
when I headed over to Dan Silverleaf, which is
where it's a local music venue.
Another part of this campaign as far as
locations, the Greenhouse Restaurant, Dan
Silverleaf, these local folks just backed us.
If we needed a meeting space, they were there for us.
So we were watching the vote come in,
and I remember I got to the venue and Sharon
Wilson of Earth Works leaned her head out
the door and said 56 beeping percent of the vote.
That's what we were winning by, and she
was so excited, and everybody was just hugging
and crying and it was just a lot of
jumping and happiness and relief, because
we thought we're going to breathe again.
We were fighting for our very lives.
We're going to breathe again, these kids
are going to grow up with cleaner air.
That's what we thought was happening.
-: So just jubilation and then-
-: Jubilation.
And then-
-: Within 24 hours you have the lawsuits rolling in.
-: Yes.
-: So obviously between then and Abbott
signing HB40, must have been pretty, pretty tense.
-: Yeah.
I think it is good for people to realize
the state of our democracy.
Because the American legislative exchange
council, ALEC, was behind HB40.
And they've also been behind every atrocious
bill since the 80s, but it's a group of
lobbyists, they take our so called
representatives, they wine and dine them behind
closed doors in Vegas for example, is where one
of these conventions happened, and there while
they're wining and dining them, they present
to them these model bills like HB40.
And they say here's this model bill that
you senator, can take back to Florida.
And you senator, can take back to Texas.
And then they get these bills passed, and so
when communities like Denton or any other
community plans these lobbying trips to
go down and talk to our representatives
and tell them about our children with asthma,
those bills have been bought and paid for
behind the scenes long before the communities
ever have an opportunity to speak up.
And that is what I really want people
to take away from this whole story.
We have to fight ALEC.
We have to fight these lobbyists and these
groups that are prepaying for these bills
behind the scenes, and we have to have
campaign finance reform.
Because otherwise the community's voice
is never going to be heard, it's never going
to have enough money, it's never going to be
loud enough to maintain our democracy.
Yeah, I could go on about that,
but that is what happens.
So they're basically ALEC is funding these
representatives' campaigns, and they are there by
getting these bills onto the floor of our state hearing.
So it's like by the time the community shows up,
it's a horse and pony show at that point.
Yeah.
-: Were you already that aware the inner workings
of the system when this was going on or did
you read into it more after HB40?
-: Right.
I think it was a definite wake up call.
Because we were genuinely happy about our success.
And I think that we knew we were chancing a
lawsuit, but I think that I personally thought
the democracy would be stronger than to
overthrow a vote, a democratic vote.
But it's not, and that's good for people to know.
I would rather people not believe in a farce.
If anything, it was a massive education effort
not only about what fracking is and the dangers
of it, but the state of local democracy.
And you see that now.
Look at [Inaudible] On record recently.
Those guys went on record saying we hope
this is the worst year for local democracy ever.
That's their goal.
That is their stated vocalized goal
is to undermine local democracy.
Yeah.
I think too after that, we were speaking at
different conferences and people wanted us to
come share our story, how did we do this, how did
we win the ban and what happened afterwards?
So I was meeting with people from all over
the country, and they were working on local issues.
They were working on issues against [Inaudible]
in their communities, they were working on issues
of indoor smoking and all these local control
rights issues, and all of them went back to ALEC.
So yeah, I think it's a beast that
needs to be taken on for sure.
-: So would you say that the whole experience
then of frack free Denton, has this made you
in a way more optimistic in the possibility
of local activism and of democratic activism
or how has it changed your thoughts
on all of that since then?
-: Yeah.
Well, I will say that I think especially
on issues of air and water, I think that
when people are... yeah, okay.
To your question, let me go back.
Yeah, definitely not more optimistic.
To be honest, no.
How could I come out of a situation like that
with more optimism, you know?
But I think it's okay.
I think it's okay, to be disillusioned
can be a powerful place because it's always
good to know the true state of things.
So yeah, I think less optimistic
but perhaps more aware, so that's okay.
-: So what has happened since then?
Last thing I saw, you were arrested for
protesting at a well when the drilling
resumed after HB40.
What developments have gone on
in the four years since then?
-: Right.
So yes.
So after HB40 passed and we saw that the
city was not going to take on the lawsuit,
I personally didn't feel connected enough
to resource who would take on the lawsuit.
I didn't know every group that was willing
to take on the state on that issue.
No one felt at the time, well I wouldn't say
no one, but no one with the resources to fight
felt that it was a viable lawsuit.
I think it was probably debatable,
but that's where we were at is I just felt
like this is our last option.
So we painted the words of our vote
onto a big board to show this is what the
people passed, this is the law that
was on the books, and these people at the
state level and the oil and gas industry
had to go change the law in order to beat us.
What we passed was lawful and by the vote of the people.
And these people had to go maneuver
and change the law in order to beat us.
I just wanted people to see that.
I just wanted them to see it on a large scale
so I painted the words of our vote, the ballot
writing on there, and the law that we passed.
To me it wasn't even a question at that point.
When you just feel that amount of injustice
surround you and it's so weighty on you,
it just feels like there's nothing left
to do but just sit in front of something
and stop it with your own body.
I don't know how to describe it any other way.
I am not brave.
I'm not a brave person, I'm not exceptionally
anything, I'm just a normal person
who was just pushed to the brink on that issue.
I think that that just felt like that was
our only reasonable step remaining.
And that's why we went out there and just sat down.
And then after that I think there were about
a dozen people that were arrested in civil
disobedience at the well site.
And the reason that we chose that well site
on [Inaudible] Is because that was the first
place that was going to be fracked
after our ban had been overturned.
So it was significant, and I think that's
important to choose a significant
site where harm is happening.
There's also a community right across the
street where there are babies and children
running around playing right there,
and their air is being polluted.
So it was significant on a lot of levels.
Yeah.
I think that civil disobedience is a really
important tool that people don't utilize enough.
But I will say that since then, to answer your
question of what's happened since then, the
same organization ALEC has now gone and
into Louisiana, into Texas and other places,
and if we were to do what we did back then
today, if we were to just go sit in front of
the frack well, it would be a felony.
-: Really?
-: Yeah, they've upped the punishment
for civil disobedience all across the country.
These laws are trying to be passed.
So one of the people like Cindy Spoon who
helped organize the civil disobedience trainings
here in Denton for us, she is one of the first
people to be tried under that new protest
is a felony law in Louisiana,
and that is an ALEC model bill.
Again, just like the anti fracking or the ban
on our ban, HB40, just like that was an ALEC
bill, so are these anti protest laws.
What I really want people to realize is
that their freedoms are being eroded
all around them while we're comfortable
and while we're just going about our daily
lives, these bills are being passed and passed
and passed that are eroding your freedom.
I really want people to consider the fact that
we did not wake up as activists, we were normal
people and we were moms and we were dads
and teachers and people of the community
who were pushed to the brink.
And if that right to civil disobedience is
not remaining for you, if that becomes a felony
and you're cut off from the access to protest,
what kind of a society are you living in at that point?
And I want people to wake up and realize
how much their freedoms are being eroded.
So yes.
-: Is there anything left of Denton drilling
advisory group and stuff like that, of the old
community that was built four years ago, we've
been hearing that it kind of fizzled out.
Where do you stand on that?
What's happened from your perspective?
-: From my perspective, I think that you don't
go through something like that and then just
go back to a state of unawareness.
I think it changed every person
involved very deeply.
And I see those people.
Like I said, Cindy Spoon, that woman's
not ever going to stop.
She's an activist for life, she's just
living her life that way.
So she went on to fight in Louisiana,
and fight with the branches of the pipelines
that are coming through there.
So she's fighting for the bayou
and the wetlands down there.
There's all sorts of organizers who were
part of that that are still actively
involved and engaged all over the place.
It doesn't matter to me if the name
frack free Denton continues on or if the
drilling awareness group continues on
in those particular organizational names.
The individuals involved I know will never stop
caring, they will never stop doing good in the world.
Cathy McMullen, she does animal rescue now.
She did that before this too.
But she's still engaged and active on a daily basis.
It just might work a little different
for all of us now, because you have to think too
about I think one thing I wasn't aware of at the
time is just a sense of personal sustainability.
You cannot keep up the pace of a
campaign for four years straight.
And that's what I personally was trying to do
for years after the ban, we were still trying
to go on these lobby trips and organize
long after the ban had been overturned.
So I know that the [Inaudible] Group, I know that
they're still... they've gone back I think to
fighting for better regulations and things like that.
As an individual, you just have to find what you
can be self sustaining in, and I think for me
that was not the route, so I'm not on the board
anymore, but I'm doing other things.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I think it's okay that the names
change and the faces change.
I know that indivisible Denton, a lot of
our volunteers are still very involved
with indivisible Denton and fighting some of
the more recent human rights atrocities
that we see on the national level.
They're fighting those on local levels.
So I think that it did engage people in a way
that has sustained, it's just that the names
of the groups have changed, you know?
-: So do you see anything, considering all of this
what do you think that needs to be done moving
forward, just the same what's been going on?
What can be done better?
-: Right.
-: About all of this, just any thoughts on that.
-: So the good news is, and I actually did not
know this until the recent [Inaudible]
came out with the DRC article.
There is not that much fracking going on
here in town since the ban.
A lot of it was I think already on the way
out economically, and a lot of it was
moving off to other basins as well,
and off of the [Inaudible]
so I have to believe that a lot of those
threats directly after the ban were kind of
theater on behalf of the industry.
Because it just wasn't sustained after that.
And I think we did a massive temperature
check on this community, and I hope that anyone
who considers coming here and harming our
community, harming our air and water, would
think twice about the history that has gone on
here and the vote that these people took.
You have to consider that, that you're not
wanted here in this community if you're
going to cause that level of harm.
So I think a lot of it has moved on.
But I think that I now moving forward,
what I would hope is that things like this
continue to happen, things like the DRC article,
people have to keep talking about it
because no matter what's going on in the national
level, and I know that that's overshadowed a lot
of the last couple years to where it feels so
hopeless on a larger scale that it's hard to focus
on the local things that we can perhaps change.
But I would hope that local communities
in Texas are sharing information, are sharing
their history, are sharing these stories
so that they remember their power.
And I would like to see people collectively
fighting things like the penalizing
protest bill and HB40.
I think that eventually things
are changing in Texas.
We see that, we see that without gerrymandering,
Texas is if not half and half, pretty close
down political lines, things are shifting.
And I think that we have to just shift to a more
sustainable future, and within that I think a
time is going to arise where it's ripe again
for people to talk to each other like we did.
That's how we won the ban was by talking to
each other, and I hope that as those
conversations develop, that we organize again to
fight HB40 and to take back that local
control that has been so, so horribly
eroded over the last few years.
-: Covered a lot of good ground.
I feel like you've more or less
answered what I would've used as a wrap up
question, which was what do you think
you've learned from all of this?
If you have any extra thoughts on
that, do please share.
-: Yeah.
It altered my whole life.
I had only been married for a year when
I became the volunteer coordinator
for that campaign, and then it just
swallowed my life for the next three years.
So I think like I said, I would just on a
personal level, I think that I would encourage
people to absolutely feel the critical
nature of these issues, but at the same time
engage in a way that can be sustainable
for your own personal life, and recognize
that there is a tomorrow, that we can give
in a way in which we can still live
a beautiful life, and it's a hard line to find.
It's a hard balance to find in the face
of climate change, you know?
How do you dance as the world is dying?
How do you sing as the world is going?
That's a really hard balance to find.
But it's essential, because otherwise you
will be so burnt out, you will be so exhausted
that you won't have anything to give the next day.
So I think finding ways to engage that you are
passionate about, finding ways to engage in which
you can find your personal flow.
We had another project while all this
was going on called the frackettes.
-: Yeah, we heard about that.
-: Yeah.
And it was so fun, and it was with some
of my closest friends in the world.
Even though it was activism for sure, we were a
musical parody group, we were doing satires
of the oil and gas industry using their
own material, we really didn't
have to write very much material.
They kind of handed it to us.
We were just putting it to Broadway songs
and doing these little musical numbers
and doing puppet shows, we had a
group called Puppets for the planet.
Super fun writing puppet shows for kids
and for the community, and our whole goal
with that was something that a friend said
to me, which was when you're doing activism,
or I guess a lot of this could apply to a lot
of things, but seeking to comfort the
afflicted and afflict the comforted.
So with our volunteers and these people just
giving their lives and their hours,
we wanted to bring a laugh to them and we wanted
to bring a sense of lightheartedness to them.
But also music is powerful, and dance
and movement and visual art.
It's so powerful, it's so innately human
that it's an easy medium by which to
communicate and to connect.
You could tell people facts all day,
but unless you tell them a story,
unless you sing them a song, it is
not necessarily going to communicate or
be memorable, and so I think that those
were ways in which I could as a
musician, interact and be sustainable.
Of course, it takes a lot of work too,
but it's not going to feel like work
if you can find a way to give that is
from your heart and from a sense of your
own personal interest in art.
So that's what I would encourage people
to do is to find what they're passionate
about and give through that medium.
Don't try to become... I don't know.
I was horrible at social media and technical
issues, and I was put into that role a lot.
I was horrible.
So I guess I learned that.
I learned if I am going to do good in the world
or activism, I have to find a way to do
it sustainably for myself.
Yeah.
-: Well, I think that ought to do it.
So thank you so much for doing this interview.
-: Thank you, yeah.
Thanks, Ian.
-: I think we got a lot of good info.
All right.
-: Thank you so much.