The other person in the room with me is my
producer Sarah who you can't see she's running
the board for us
And a couple of things. I just wanted to tell
you about the podcast
So it's going to be a narrative podcast
Which means I'm going to be narrating a lot of
these stories of these cases and we're going to
be using clips from these interviews
To kind of help help narrate these stories
So what that means for you today is if there's
ever a time where you want to go back and say
something differently
Or if you want to take a moment to think about
a question that I asked anything like that
You can do at any time. In other words, we're
not going to be using these raw interviews
We're going to be editing them and using
certain clips. Okay, so there's no need to feel
like you have to be polished immediately
If you want to say something differently, you
can just say that I want to go back and say
that again. All right
Okay. So before we get to your
Experience at Texas A&M as a student. I'm just
curious. Are you from Texas originally? Where'd
you grow up?
No, I I grew up in Puerto Rico or Mexico City.
That's really where I guess I would say my
formative year. So
elementary school and high school
Were mostly in those places, although I started attending
In some years I would I started, you know
attending junior high here in Texas
So that would be my first experience with Texas
would have been
Junior high and then back to Mexico City for a
while then back to Texas again. So and after
the last
Time once I got to college that was I pretty
much stayed here
Okay, and so why did you choose Texas A&M?
Well, you're asking me for a question. That was like
Got 40 years ago now. I think I mean it's a
long time ago
Can't honestly remember why I chose A&M it's
been so long
Well, it's a great school. I said, you know,
it's coming back to me now
I think that yeah, the reason was was because
they had a good program
That people were recommending to me in
environmental design
That's that's what it was about then. I didn't
end up in that degree at the end
I ended up in political science instead
afterwards, but but that was the reason
Okay, and I will tell you that I I have no idea
about A&M. I mean I
Having not grown up in Texas for the most part. I
Had only what I would say very peripheral
understanding of A&M versus UT or any of that stuff
to me
When I visited both universities, they were
essentially the same. I had no concept of how
different they actually were
Oh interesting
So what year did you arrive as a student at
Texas A&M?
So I'm gonna so that would have been
Time to think that would have been
1980 I think hold on a second. Is that correct? So
I'm gonna say 80. Yeah fall of 80
Okay, fall of 1980. That's about right. Okay,
and were you out then?
Not out out
You know, I would say that as a I mean I
As a young man at 16, you know, even back then
in the 70s, you know when I was in high school
I was already
Looking for alternative, you know, I was
already going to gay bars in Mexico City. So
what I would do is
My family was living here now
But I still had family in Mexico City
And so every six months or so I'd go visit my
family there and then at night would go out
You know, they have no idea that I was going to
this, you know out into the city and going to
gay bars in Mexico City
So so I was kind of living that life already
very early
Really? I wouldn't recommend it for a 16 year
old to be doing this thing
Especially in a large city like that because I
mean you're in a 16 year old boy
On his own no one knows where you where you are
and of course it was before cell phones
So looking back on it, I think that was it was
rather risky and foolish
but but so I was definitely already aware of
What were you know, my you know what my
inclinations were?
What kind of life I was likely to lead and that
but in college is where I finally, you know
Did start coming out and and that was mostly
because of my activism with a subject matter
that you you brought to me really?
So that was what basically led me to
Decide that I needed to now be
Open about this. Huh?
What was it like to be a gay student at Texas
A&M in the early 1980s?
Well, you know, I mean for most students, you
know when you grow up this way, especially back then
I mean nowadays people talk about
The discrimination they experience and it's and
I'm sure it's a lot like what black people
might think when they look at the young
People talking about how hard they have it and
I'm thinking you don't understand how different
things are today than they were back then
You know, you grew up already, you know
It's already kind of built in that you're not
gonna be telling anyone
So I as I recall no one was out back in those
days. I mean in the entire school
You could count on your hands how many people
were known to be gay at Texas A&M out of even
then 35,000 students
But it was a requirement to have your name as
one of the student officers and even though we
weren't recognized
As a student group, we we understood that the
rules were that in order to apply you had to
list at least three officers
That were students on your you know
Student, you know recognition application
So that meant that at least three students had
to be willing to do that
And so that would be pretty much I think that
was pretty much the only people that were out
and maybe a couple of others
So it was not common
There was definitely a thriving gay community
and I would say that because it was so
Underground it was much more tight-knit than
perhaps what you would you would find today
So I don't I wouldn't say it was a scary experience
It was more like an uncomfortable experience at
times, you know, most of the time you're just
doing your things
You're going to school. You're you're not even
thinking about these things, right?
You're just you know, trying to pass your tests
right going to the grocery store these things
But then sometimes something could come up that
all of a sudden would make you aware
Oh now I got to watch myself now. I got to
watch. What am I saying?
You know, they're asking me about last night or
who is that person?
You know now all of a sudden you realize I got
to come up with a story to explain
Something that ordinarily would be nothing to
somebody else, right? But for me
You know, can I say that I was you know at the
chicken coop last night?
But wait, maybe maybe they were there and
they'll realize I wasn't there
So, how am I going to now say what I was doing?
so I
Would say that was what the main thing would be
is that just finding ways to keep it
Undercover and not tell anyone and just make
sure that you weren't inadvertently discovered
or somebody who's you know, beginning to put it together
The sentiment against gay people was real and
when they would do interviews
During the court case news when there was in a
new cycle
The sentiments were almost entirely
hostile to gay people
But that did change I would say even during my
time there it it actually I would say in just a
little time that I
Was there that changed?
And so did you get involved with gay student
services as soon as you got to A&M?
Did it take some time to kind of find that
group of people it did take time
I didn't know about their existence or anything
about them when I first went to A&M and
You know, I think it was just gradually by
going out to the the one gay bar that existed where
Somebody mentioned that there was this organization
that existed right and
And so it's one of those things where you kind
of just have this sort of peripheral peripheral
experience of them being out there somewhere
There's sort of this organization there
And then you know, maybe months later
You know, maybe well, you know, maybe I should
join maybe I should be active, you know, maybe
I should be getting involved, right?
so I remember
talking to a friend of mine
back then who was also gay and
Indicating to me that you know
Marco, you know, you're interested in politics.
You're interested in sort of things
You should get involved with this organization,
you know, maybe that's what you should do
You should get involved with this organization,
you know, maybe that's what you should do so I did
and I showed up and started attending meetings and
Became aware of this whole new
political world
And I say political not because they were
intending it to be political but rather because
that's when I realized
Oh, there's this whole big issue about
Whether we can be on campus whether we can't be
on campus
all that
all that stuff so
It was very quickly
that I got into all the
the the the you know all the all the stuff that
was happening around gay student services
And what kind of activities were they doing on
campus what kind of services I guess were they providing
They weren't a lot on campus. So or
technically, uh while we would put flyers out
and things like that, you know
We're not allowed to have any meetings or
anything on campus per se
Uh, but we would put ads in the battalion for
the gay line
Uh, we would have a roommate service for the
Gay roommate service
And we did have the speaker's bureau
so we would send there was a human sexuality
course that would always invite members of Gay
student services or
the adult group in Brian called alternative
um, and they would
Certainly and then they would send people to
talk about you know, what's it like to be gay, right?
um and about that so
But yeah, I would say those were actual
services that they were providing were the
speaker's bureau the Gay line
The gay line was sort of a hotline
uh where we would provide whatever information
we could for people who were
Had concerns or issues or worries
Regarding their sexuality if they needed some
counseling or some assistance
Uh, and we actually took training for that. So
we actually had a little committee that would
You know train us on how to listen to people on
the phone
How to respond to them not, uh, you know not
interject your own
Ideas or thoughts into what they were saying,
but it was called active listening
It was basically just listen to what they're
saying to you and uh, and then if necessary
refer them to someone
um, so it was actually a really excellent
service done by
You know 20 year old students
It sounds like in some ways that it was like a
crisis hotline. I'm sure you talked to people
who were in crisis
Yes, yes you did and so we all there was you know
It was a volunteer time and we would take turns
people would sign up for times man in the line
There was you know, we did require that
anybody, uh doing this gives me just a second
We did require that anybody answering that
phone line do take the training
So that was so nobody would be allowed to
answer it unless they took the training on how
to to answer these phone calls
Um, you know, you could have a whole night no
one called but once in a while, you know
you might have a couple of calls it was so it
wasn't like it was a lot of calls, but
Uh, the the gay line was staffed, uh, almost
every day as I recall pretty much
They there was always somebody almost always there
So talk a little bit about how you became
president of Gay student services, I think that
was in spring of 84
That's that is right
and um
I did not realize at the time
You know and again, you know
And this is typical in any kind of organization
of this kind with and it's in fact
I even see it happening now and say the
republican groups I'm involved in now
grassroots, right that
It's the same kind of thing. There's always a
very short
I'm getting a feedback all of a sudden
Yeah, we're getting a little bit of
interference there
so, um
Where there's not there's not you know, you you
you know
Members don't have a long-term memory of what's
come before you right? You don't know
All the people that were there even maybe a
year ago, right?
um, but apparently
there were um
You know, there was the president, uh, his name
is Eric Graham. I don't know if he's on your list
uh, he was very popular
and uh, he
he uh
Told me one day he approached me one day and said
I remember he just talked to that Marco. I want
to talk to you. I want to let you know that
You know I'm going to be resigning as president
of gay student services
and um
He kind of broached if I would be willing to do
this if I would really take his place
And I was a little surprised because I hadn't
been in the organization that long, right?
You know I've been involved for a few months,
but I certainly didn't have all this background
in it
But I was interested. I mean I was thinking
well, you know, I mean I did want to get
politically involved and so
Not many people are willing to be open and to
be president you have to be
Open and public, right?
I asked him why he didn't want to do it and you know
He gave me his reasons as to why he just wasn't
really in the position to to do this anymore
I said yes, what I did not realize though was
that at the time
There was another person who did have some
history with the organization
Who was interested in becoming president?
And I only after I was elected and actually I
would say months later that I realized I was there
I was their candidate to not let this public
guy beat the president. That's really what it was
I think I remember we had a we had so we had a
contested election
I didn't think I did a very good speech at all.
I was so brand new
I mean I could I was really just sort of you
know, awkward
Um, he was very good
And uh, I thought I was gonna lose like well,
you know, he spoke so well
I could you know, I was just sort of bumbling
about uh, but I won
It was only later that I realized that
He had rubbed so many people the wrong way
upset so many people
that they simply
look for
Who who can we get?
That we will be willing to vote for
As an alternative and so we need to have
someone um
I'm glad that they felt that I was at least
capable enough to you know do the job, you know
Yeah, I think on some level they saw that you
had leadership qualities. That would be good
for the organization
Well, I hope that was the case, you know, but
clearly there was more to it than just that it
wasn't like oh
He's so great. No, there was more to it
But yes, at least they thought of me and you
know, not somebody else. Well, whatever that
reason was
and then
You know it did you know things did really
become a lot more public back then as the court
case began to proceed
And you know items started decisions started
coming down from the fifth circuit court
Supreme Court
You know the debate at A&m really became
extremely intense. I would say it was sort of a culmination
of several years of of this controversy
And I I would say that it was a really valuable
learning experience for me about a lot of things
Not just it definitely taught me how to speak.
I learned very quickly how to start talking and
how to
Express myself publicly with folks
I'd not be worried too much about you know, not
stumble or anything like that
and uh, but also
I learned some really hard lessons about human behavior
and finding out that
You know
There is no nature does not discriminate in
terms of the kind of uh ethics
and and that people have
You can be anyone and you can look and think oh
gay people. Well, you know what?
We're just as capable as anyone else of of
you know
Not having a sense of ethics. We can be just as
bad as anyone else
We we're just as capable of hurting other
people of being unfair. There's nothing special
About us as far as that goes and that's
something that you know, you start off thinking
you're I'm the good guy
You know, we're the good people. They're the
bad people
And I started realizing no, that's too simple.
That's actually not quite right
There's a lot of complications people are
complicated beings, right? There's a lot that
goes into a human being
and in many cases I started realizing wow
People that are quote unquote on the opposite
sides in many cases are people that I can
respect and admire
More than people that are on my side
Not because of their ideas about say this
particular issue
But about how they conduct themselves in
general how they treat other human beings, you know
So you can it was uh, my first time
understanding that
Bad people can be on your side and good people
can be on the opposite side
Yeah, it sounds like maybe there were some
tensions within Gss when you became president
not when I became president
Um, not when I became president, uh
You know, there was a hunting period things
were great and I would say that for a long time
Things were good
uh, or at least
I say long time, you know now my age
I would say, you know, no time at all, right
but to them to me in those days. It seemed like
a long time, right?
um, but yes, uh
There was there were tensions and they began to
appear when um
What I would say a feminist professor
Uh start joined our organization. I don't know
if you heard this or familiar with her, but you
know when Dr. Wendy stock
attended our meetings
And uh, you know, I was already president by
then and I had been president, you know
For at least a couple of months. I can't
remember how long it'd been. Uh, it'd been for
some time
and um
She said something that immediately
Made me feel like something in the pit of my stomach
There was just something about her announcement
And she came in and she said, you know, I'm Dr.
Wendy stock. I do women's studies all this stuff
Um, I'm interested in forming this lesbian Rap
group, uh only for women though, you know, and
then she said something
That I thought was interesting, but I'm not
here to do separate or make any divisions or
anything like that
And I thought that's an odd thing
to say
Why would you you know, it immediately made me
wonder this there's something wrong with this
picture when someone comes in that's brand new
And they feel compelled
As a as a starting point to tell you I'm not
here to divide things
But why would you think we would think that why
would you open?
With something like that and I have discovered
in life
I don't know if this has happened to you. Um,
but uh
That when people tell you things that there's
no reason for you to tell you there's a reason
Why they're telling you that there there is a
reason so if it's unexplainable
To you it's because you don't know the reason
but there must be a reason why someone felt
compelled to do that
um, and so that would I would say that was the
beginning of the
Tension not that it surfaced. I think it
surfaced later, you know, I can't remember
honest I'm looking it back at the time frame
You know might have been a few more months
before it finally came out into the open
but uh, but yeah, I would say yes, there were
definitely tensions that
Did become more and more intense and just
escalated until we were recognized
a year later
So, do you remember what the status of the case
against the university was when you became
president where was it in that process so
You know, there hadn't been much activity prior
to that. The last thing that had happened was
it had been the case had been sent back
To the district court and I think the district
court had once again
Ruled against A&m and so now it was reappealed
because I think it went twice up the latter
the first time as far as whether to hear the
case and then the second time as to the
The resolution of the case right? And so, um on
the second so now it was back to the fifth
circuit court for
Appealing to this district judge decision
against that's against gay student services. So
The district judge clearly was not in support
of gay student services
And so the lawyers that were working, you know
pro bono for the most part for gay student services
That's where it was. So
But nothing had nothing much had happened for
some time
And so it was in August of 1984
So just a few months after I become president
when the fifth circuit court, you know rendered
its decision
Uh in support of gay student services and
that's when the media coverage really
Began and that's when that fall
of 1984 the entire campus, I mean it was kind of
Kind of like the transition today. That's all
people talked about it was that was the topic
of discussion
There were a few other things going on, but
this was definitely there was also the women in
the band issue as well
but um, but clearly
You know, it just seemed like not a day didn't
go by that
There wasn't some discussion about what's going
on with gay student services
Okay, so this is the real news item of the day
then, uh, lots of editorials and newspapers
Um, what what did that mean for the organization?
Were there any immediate changes after the
fifth circuit ruling or did the university
continue to try to stall recognition?
Oh, yeah, I mean they doubled down
I can't remember
The guy their counselor's name Ted Havorski or
something like that. Uh, yeah, is that right?
Uh, he uh, you know and um
coldest and all these folks, uh
Clearly they they they simply doubled down. Um
You know, they kept on with this whole thing
about if you recognize gay student services
Then you might as well recognize a group that
promotes bestiality and you know things like
that or animal sacrifice or whatnot stuff like that
and uh
So there no there was not a hint of
reconsideration whatsoever
but by this time
You know, I had already acquainted myself a
little more about what law and what you know
What the law is and what court cases had done?
and um
And so I remember actually there's a I have a
clip. Uh, this is my my friend Kevin Bailey,
you know
He he had his video camera. So he was recording
all these things for posterity, you know, and
now I have him still but
Um, but I remember telling people, you know
when I was being interviewed that uh,
I know they're going to appeal and I know
they're going to lose
And of course they did lose. Um
And I looked back at that video and I'm going
well, how did I know that?
Well, I'm going well, I think I knew that
because I already saw the cases and I I saw
that there is no explanation for
Say you can't recognize this group because of
harmful content, you know that you think the
content is harmful
Therefore you've made a decision
That and it's an argument by the way that I now
use uh from the right very often
You know
I have a lot of folks on the left who say you
shouldn't say things because they're harmful
and I often remind them in fact, I did it
recently on the radio just a couple of months
ago when
Uh, one of my counterparts was talking about,
you know
Preventing people from saying things that are
harmful to people and I reminded him that as a
gay person I can tell you
This is sounds very nice at the beginning. It sounds
um reassuring but it's actually a very bad idea because
There is no way to define harmful in any
objective way
There really isn't and that is exactly what was
used against gay people all the time
They're harmful. Therefore this justifies Xyz
against them
And uh, so if it was wrong for them to do it,
then it's it's wrong for us to do it
Now you have to let adults make their own
decisions. You have to let the
Marketplace of ideas work on its own and you
can't go around there and determining
Who do you think is harmful and who is not
because ultimately you're basically making
yourself the arbiter you are deciding
I am the one who decides
Because well, who are you right?
Did we did who did we vote for to become the
arbiter of harmful content, right? So, uh,
So that's interesting. But yes, um
They had no good arguments. Uh, I think more
and more the more they talked
the more
We started peeling people away
and um, and one of I think one of the most, uh,
I think iconic moments of that time
where I could see where this was going to go
and where
Public sentiment was going to go there was a
debate that was sponsored by the Texas A&m debate
um club
I don't know if you knew about this and they
sponsored a debate on the question as to
whether Gss
So that's the way they said it was gss, but
they call it gss. So, you know should be a
recognized student group
That was the question that was put
to to the debate
Uh, is this is this the swamp event? That was
no. No. No, this was a debate society. So the
big different different event
Okay. Yeah, this is a uh recognized event
You know by the recognized student group, you
know, that was debate club
And they had it at uh rudder at the rudder
Uh, you know
building the rudder tower
Uh, and uh, and I was asked about it because
you know, I was president already. So, uh
members had asked me about
They had asked if I'd be willing to debate
The folks in my organization at Gss did not
want me to do that. They felt that um that it
was a setup
And so I didn't
But I was still invited to come so members of
the debate society, I guess
Wanted me to be there either way, even if I
couldn't be debating then certainly, you know
Maybe you can help out the guy who's going to
be arguing, you know our side of it
And you know and again, this is I think one of
the great things about you know open debate, right?
Especially that I think this is exactly what
it's supposed to do right is to have two sides
with an open forum
Present their arguments and then see what what
folks think about that
And what I thought was interesting about what
the way they did this is when I arrived there
They had the room divided into two, you know in
half right and on one side if you if you supported
The the you know the motion then you were on
one side of the room
If you supported the other side or against the
motion then you were on the other side
So you could literally visually see where
people were in their sentiments as soon as you
entered the room
um, and the instruction was that if you changed
your mind during the debate
then you were supposed to
Change seats and move across to the other side
Anytime anyone changed their feelings on this.
So when I got in there, um
It was wall to wall
On the opposite side against Gay student
services. I there must have been like 280 students
I think the numbers were 280 students
All the chairs were full standing room only
people were lined up against the walls
uh, it was completely
Just full of people opposing gay student
services being recognized on the other side I
counted about 25 people
so it was more than 10-1 I mean it was
overwhelming, um
Um, I will tell you I don't know why I really
it made no
I didn't care. It made no impression on me. I
just felt that this is the way it is and it's
not new to me
so I was happy to be there and the nice thing
about this is that once the
Debaters got to present their arguments they
would do counter arguments for a while
But then the audience would then get to
participate and so people could raise their hands
And make their own arguments and have that go
back and forth
And I did get a chance to speak a few times
about this
What happened is that during that I think it
was an hour and a half Steadily
As the arguments went on you saw people keep
coming back to our site
Just you would just see them trickling over
just trickling over more and more we lost some
Maybe four or five but we gained about 75
so it was
And I was like this is exactly what's going to
happen. All we have to do is just keep making
the case
Because the arguments are on our side and the
more people hear these things
Most human beings don't change their minds like
that, but they start hearing the counter
arguments. They never heard
And never understood and going. Oh, um, you
know what?
I mean think of what it takes for a person
Who went in there and say I'm against these
people. I don't want them on campus
I'm going to sit on this side and then
listening for about an hour and thinking
You know what? I'm going to make a statement
that I no longer support this side. That's
quite remarkable when you think about it
Oh, it's almost utopian to think about today of
people changing their minds on something like this
Yes, it is. But you know what?
You know, it was 75 people out of 280 when the
battalion reported the story the next day
They didn't mention that so what they said was
that gay student service is lost because the
vote was 220 or something like that
Versus, you know, uh
80, you know, whatever it was. I can't remember
what the numbers were exactly and I was
thinking yeah the way this story is written
You're not going to know what actually happened
during that debate
You're just going to come and it'll be your
impression will be reading this story
is that um
The case was made and people just sort of did
an up and down vote and were against it
Nowhere in the story does it mention
where it started and that in fact
almost the entire game
Of of people changing their minds was almost
all of it nine over 90
On in favor of gay students and I thought that
is the reporter
Basically weighing in deciding I am not going
to tell
I'm not going to lie. Nothing in the story was
false, right?
But it definitely gave a false impression
And I and I will tell you that that is actually
I have in these last in the last 40 years realized
That's extremely common in news reporting very common
So nowadays when people talk about stories, in
fact, I'm going to be on the radio today
That's why I have to have a hard stop, you
know, uh, they give me stories to look at
So often it doesn't take very hard to start
tearing apart what's in that story because so
many things are simply
It's just a yeah, it's not that they're lying
But there's elements of the story that are
missing or not being presented which if you
were if they were presented would give a
completely different
impression of what's actually true
Yeah, you know one headline for that story
could be a and m students overwhelmingly oppose
recognition of Gss another headline could be
Many students are changing their minds about
Gss. That's right. And that and both would have
been true
Both would have been true, but I think the more
Interesting and more informative headline would
have been the one people changing their mind
because that predicts the future and I will say that
By the time I left a and m
It was no longer controversial
people were just people were being interviewed and
And the hostility that had been present say
when people were being interviewed in 84
Had almost vanished and it was interesting how
that happened
I think that's an interesting, you know study
for psychology, I guess it's just how does that happen?
And why did that happen? Why did people all of
a sudden just?
Stopped caring, but they did
Well, then tell me a little bit about this
event held on campus in October 84 hosted by
swamp, what do you remember about that
so, you know
Uh swamp
Students working against many problems. I
thought I thought that was a great name, but um
They uh, very sympathetic to us and there you
know, they were recognized
What's ironic is that they were definitely much
more intentionally subvertive against the
administration of a and m than we were
Uh, but because they were gay that was they
were allowed to do this, right? So they were
very happy to
You know invite gay student services on campus
for the purpose of showing up
The administration and making it possible for
us to have our voice
We certainly welcome that so they gave us the platform
I don't know if you've seen the videos of that
you probably know. Okay, so
You know, we had several of us talk, uh out
there and um
You know, it was it was quite a thing to see
all these people lined up
Uh, not lined up, but you know, but and then
you know filling up the rudder fountain area, right?
It was just hundreds of people out there
all upset about this and
You know
And yet it was still a very good thing that
happened because ultimately
People were able to say what they had to say.
We were able to speak now
That was because of swamp, right? So but we
would we did and we were able to talk. Um,
People were able to ask their questions
It's interesting though. Psychology is
definitely a part of all this, you know
We had this literature about us and nobody
wanted to touch it, right?
And I told people at the audience I said, you
know what we have all this information out here
about who we are
But no one wants to pick it up. You know why
because you're all afraid
You're all afraid that someone's going to see
you with that that uh flyer
You know, and what are they going to think of
you? Oh, are you can't even admit
To curiosity about what we're saying in this
very controversial issue. This is what's happening
Let's acknowledge that people are afraid to even
Look into what our arguments are
After I did that a couple of people did in fact
Then all of a sudden decided that they were
going to pick up the the flyers, right?
Uh, but it's interesting, you know how you
there are psychological hurdles that sometimes
you have to cross with people
In order to just even present the argument
Um, but I thought it was great. I thought it
was an excellent
Exercise of this I would say
One of the extracurricular aspects of campus
life that I do think is at its best because
Whether we agree with what people were asking
or not
You have to hear the questions
I think one of the biggest problems people have
and it doesn't matter whether you're liberal or
conservative and I would say
Unfortunately with younger people today
It's just a failure to understand
That you need to let people have the question
or make that you need to let them do it
It doesn't matter whether you like it or not,
or you think it's harmful or not
If you're in the right, then you'll have an
answer for it
You know
You will have an answer. Um, but it doesn't do
anyone any good
To say well, I don't want them saying this
about Trans people or gay people or whatever or
the Christian saying
I don't want them saying this well
Well, why not?
Um, well, it's wrong. It's harmful in one.
Well, but then if that's true
Then you have the opportunity to address that
very concern and maybe that'll ring true with
someone who had never heard that
Counter argument that's the whole point. And
so, uh, I do think that's being lost
I think it's a sad thing but back in those
days, I mean, so I always thought
I thought it was a great thing. It was a great thing
People would say yes, but most people were
against you and say it doesn't matter
We had the debate
Well, you know when I listened to that audio
and I and I saw the video the crowd to me seems
mostly hostile is that
Was that your perception? Oh, absolutely. Yes.
It was very hostile. You could feel it
Yeah, so I'm I'm curious what it felt like to
be one of the few
Openly gay students on campus. What was it like
for you personally to face a hostile crowd like that?
You know, um
I don't know what to tell you other than to say
There must have been something
different in my brain
That would make me say I'm going to be openly Gay
here in this place
And I would say well by it's an empirically
true statement only because well because nobody
else or very few people did it
So clearly not many people are making this
choice. Why am I making this choice?
uh with other folks and I'm going to simply say
that it it probably goes back down to
Perhaps the way I was raised, uh, maybe
You know how I was educated about what I
thought about free speech
Um probably had to do also with the fact that I
did not feel embarrassed about being gay. I
think that was pretty important
and you know and how I came to be not
embarrassed about it or
And I would say
I worked my way through it. So by the time I
was in college, I had worked my way and
accepted it and was
fine with this
uh, whereas, you know, maybe when I was in high
school, I was still
You know not sure
But still telling people I mean I was already
in high school playing some of my friends know
I'm gay, right?
This is back in the you know, late 70s now
And I think back. Why would that be? Why would
that why was I okay with this when so many
people even today?
Can reach their 40s without before they even
come out. They've got families and then all of
a sudden here they are and it's
And I think I'm going to give that credit to my father
Um, you know, my mother was very politically
inclined and so she was the person who always
made the arguments but she definitely was not
uh supportive of of this at all
my father on the other hand, uh was someone who
was always
very um
He talked to me about sexuality in a kind of
open way
Now he he never he didn't know I was gay or
anything, but he just talked about
You know your body and taking care of it and
you know, this is what it's going to be like
for you as a man
Um, you know sex is a good thing, right?
And then he had books
that I could see
that uh, some of them were a little more like
clinical encyclopedic
That referred to homosexuality
And but these books sort of referred to it in a
very clinical like this happens this exists
Uh, it's just there are some people that are gay
And uh, I guess enough of that, you know gelled
in me so combining that uh, sort of
clinical understanding of homosexuality with my
mother's political
Uh willfulness if you will
You know, I got that from her
That I guess that produced a combination that
said I'm very politically willful. And by the
way, I don't feel bad about being gay. So
Um, I'm going to say this
That that is my only explanation as to why and
why when I went up there
I wasn't
In any way concerned about them. I might have
been foolish by the way. I mean I could say
perhaps I was foolish
but uh, I did not um
I was if anything the way I would describe my
temperament at the time as I took the
microphone was
I was eager to talk to these people. I couldn't
wait to tell them
What I thought and why they needed to think
about this is a different way
Yeah, I I guess some people could see that as
foolish. I think I think most people who see
that would say that that was courageous
But it sounds like the values
um that were instilled in you by your parents
helped you
Avoid or at least gave you the tools to deal
with some of the shame that a lot of young gay
people experience
uh, and so maybe that maybe shame wasn't as big
of a factor for you or maybe you had
By the time you got to A.m
You had figured out a way to work through some
of that shame and so you could appear before a
hostile audience
And see that as a genuine marketplace of ideas
yes, I I would say that there's
Elements of truth and all that. I'm not kidding.
We're complicated human beings
As I said, there's a lot of probably a lot of
different things that went into this, you know
But I would say that that's generally that
sounds correct to me. Um, you know, I want I
witnessed my mother argue and debate often
with people visiting
and uh
This was mostly Mexico city, uh, but
And so at our table and even among us as family
It was a common thing that we would argue and
debate ideas
It was just something we did as a family even
with cousins and stuff
It was just we always argued things and uh,
sometimes the arguments can be very spirited
Even so that spirit of debate was already kind
of baked into our my family's Dna
Um and the idea of not backing down not
necessarily in a because there was interesting enough
No one ever got angry
No matter how passionate people got in our family
and we had people that were communist and we
had people, you know, we had people all kinds
of ways, but it was uh,
So we had it in us in terms of well, this is
what we do
In fact, we do it for fun. We just talk about
these things that combined with my father's
acceptance of the fact that you know
Marco people have very different
Views of sexuality. It's not all one thing
um, and
So even though he never said being gay is okay
I just had enough there
And his attitude that I am fine with this. So
Yes, I would say that by the time I got to
college. I was already going. I don't see a
problem here
I'm not and and if other people do
That's on them
Yeah, now that sounds very much like frank kameny
I don't know if you know a whole lot about
frank kameny, but he is early
Early gay rights activist in the in the early
60s. He was fired from his government job as an astronomer
Because he was gay and he said some very
similar things that he just never
Felt like being gay was something he needed to
hide from anyone. And so he was very willing to
talk about it with anyone
Um, and I think that's an important counter
narrative. I think your story is an important
counter narrative
To the way a lot of gay people experience
Family and
Understanding their own sexual orientation and
all of that. I think that's great
So when the Supreme Court finally decides that
the fifth circuit ruling is going to stand and
a and m is going to have to recognize
Uh Gss, what was it like for you then? What was
it like for Gss?
How did things change once it became a
recognized campus organization?
Well, you know how they say that people unite
in the face of opposition and then they fall
apart when it's not there
and certainly
as we got recognized, um
You know, it was really actually the part of
the hardest time for me because at that point
all the tensions within Gss
Had really come and uh were reaching their peak
Uh so much so that uh on our first meeting
On campus the first time we were recognized,
you know, so we were now this was in July a lot
Now getting out of feedback again
Oh, yeah, I think our video skipped a little
bit here. Okay
you know, uh
The that meeting I remember that I I offered my
resignation as president. Um, because of the
You know what I would say was the attacks that
I was getting from people on our side, you know
and I pointed out to the folks that um
You know, it's kind of remarkable to me that
the hardest, you know, the the most the
roughest treatment I was getting wasn't
from people on the other side, although
I guess part of it maybe is not entirely
accurate as I think about it
Maybe the reason why the arguments from the
opposite side didn't bother me so much because
I expected that so they're not
They're not part of my side. So I don't care
what they're saying, right?
But the but the arrows coming from behind me,
uh, those hurt a lot more
I mean it was a that was a little uh more it's
unsettling right when you're leading an
organization and then you have a
contingent of folks who are
Are you know are really angry with you, right? Um
and um
so I
And and not just with you but anybody who
supports you right so you you start seeing like
what why why is this happening?
Um, and I will I will say that yes, this came
definitely from that
You know
Lesbian rap group. Um, yeah, that's how that's
where it started
And they did in fact organize
You know an effort to get me out, right?
And and they were pretty open about it
I mean they you know, not at the beginning but
as as it get closer and closer it became more
and more about um,
Uh, and I will tell you this this is why I
eventually became a conservative. It's what
made me switch. Um,
basically saying that uh, no, uh,
Gss needs to be a you know, uh
An advocacy against the patriarchy and we need
to start advocating for abortion rights and we
need to start talking about women's rights and
you know
uh, and
These sorts of issues, you know, my response to
that was we're for gay people
We shouldn't be getting involved in taking
stances that not everyone agrees on
We're gay student services
So my response was I refused I said I don't
want to do that. I don't want to get us into politics
Yes, we're involved politically in this debate
with the university, but that's just for us to exist
But I don't want us to get involved. Uh, you
know, we're not the gay political action
committee, right?
We're here to provide gay line services. I don't
Feel comfortable
Saying that we should become this taking
stances on abortion. Why would we do that? It's
not even our issue
Why would we be taking stance on whether
there's women in the band or not or or other
things or about the patriarchy?
There are a lot of gays people who don't agree
with that. Are we going to I mean, what kind of
group is this supposed to become?
and um
So I did object to it and I said no I'm not
going to do that. I refuse and I won't
Do it. Um, I will tell you a lot of my people
who are my side thought that I was uh,
Initially did think that I was making too much
of it that I was uh,
not um
That they really didn't you know that they're
they have no real intentions
They're they're just uh, you just need to let
them have what they want, which I did for a
while, right?
But I warned them I said I don't think that's
true. I think you know, you guys keep saying
there's nothing nothing to worry about
But I do think there's something to worry about
when they talk this way and say these things
I don't think they're going to stop
but okay, you know, let's
Let them do what they want to do
Well, you know what it goes back down to let
people let people speak because eventually they
do express what they want to say
so it was the right thing to do in some ways because
They were allowed the first, you know, so they
were they got control of our newsletter. So
it's okay
They wanted to lose the newsletter for us
Um, I mean you still have a copy
you you
It is kind of amusing because it's kind of like
people can't help themselves sometimes right
they become their own worst enemy
And all of a sudden they become too apparent
in what they're doing
Because they're not really even reconsidering.
They're not they're like, you know, they're a
little bubble like well
This makes sense to me and everyone who agrees
with me thinks it makes sense
Yes, but you're not listening to those who
don't agree
They I know people started opening their eyes a
little bit when that first newsletter came out
and it was
uh, very very
Uh, it was extremely feminist but not like
Your standard feminist. I mean we're talking
about stuff that even today would be considered
very very far left
And in some ways even critical of gay men
and so it some of the gay men started looking
like why this is
This is kind of hustle to us, right? Like why
why why are we printing out material?
You know on our gay newsletter that is now in
some ways targeting gay men itself as part of
the problem
right so
That kind of started getting people thinking
like wait, what what is all this? Why are why
are this is divisive, right?
uh, so, um
July came I resigned I said I'm, you know
effective the first meeting of the fall
semester. I'm going to uh step down
I think that uh
You know, there's there's been a lot of uh
you know
Animosity directed at me and people are my
friends and I just don't feel like I need to
support it. We're on campus
This this job is done. So, uh, you know, so but
you know, well, it's summertime
Most people are away, but when we come back
September, you know, we can elect a new president
well, um
When um September came
Uh during the summer before that happened. Um,
you know Paul Hearn one of our members came to
meet with me one day
Um after this had happened and they said marco
You know people are talking and they want you
to stay
You know and be his president
and I said Paul
Look at what I'm subjected to you know, every
time I go in there. It's nothing but attacks
and no one defends me
No one no not even my friends. Everyone's
silent. It's just attack attack attack
and so, uh, I can't
You know be dealing with this
And he says well we do support you say well,
yeah you say that
But I'm there alone
You know what? You don't know what that feels like
So I said well Marco, what would it take to get
you to stay? I said well, you know, um
You know if there's a strong sentiment from the membership
You know I consider is well, what if I get a petition?
You know and the majority of people say you
want to stay I said majority No
It has to be two-thirds. I already won a
majority in the election and look what good it
did me
It didn't do me any good. I won
And it still made no difference. So no I need I need
You get me two-thirds of the membership say
they want me to stay
and then I think I can stand up to
to all of this and fight back, uh, but
I can't do it just alone like this
He says okay I'm gonna do it. I said, all
right, you give me those two-thirds
I will stay
Well, they did
They did and they read a proclamation, you know
showing support for me that we want Marco
roberts to stay
It was very nice. They were very very nice to
me and uh
When people show you that support then it does
give you the kind of okay now I have what I
need to say
All right
People have spoken
I'm not going to do this stuff. I'm not turning
this organization into a political group. It is
a service group
I don't care what your politics are and we're
not going to be going in that direction
So that's kind of what happened. I mean it
basically there was a splinter and then of
course, um
Those people that that one-third, uh left
basically split off. They formed something
called the Lesbian Gay alliance
And it it didn't last very long. I mean they
went there for a little bit
Uh, I don't they did I don't think they lasted
more than a semester
Uh, and so gay student services became a little
smaller for a small while
But but then it just kind of things kind of
just sort of went back to a more normal
More normal state I will tell you I did have an
interaction with them after that September meeting
you know Chris Halbert
a lady who
My initial interaction with her had always been
pleasant always very kind and sweet lady who
now is not as
This happens in life and it's happened many
times people will turn on you and all of a sudden
It's a whole new it's a whole new human, right?
So she met with me says well Marco, you know
since you're staying as president
We want to talk to you about what we would like
to see
He said all right sure we can we can we can
talk about that
I I'm happy to meet with you guys and see what
are your concerns
So I met with her and she left me the list. She
saved me a list and the lists were this
We want a guaranteed
uh female seat on the board
We want the meeting no longer to have uh, the
officers at the front, but we want it circular
Where everybody where there is no head or end,
you know
There is kind of like this communistic thing
and then a bunch of other things that they
wanted and my response was
I'm happy to put it up for a vote
but I'm not I'm not going to impose that so
And when I said that
That's not what they wanted. They didn't want a vote
They wanted for me to just make it happen
And so I said no we can debate it
bring it up if people want it we'll put it but
No, I'm not doing that
and and so it goes back down to
I have become a fervent defender of first
amendment and debate. I think that there's
nothing like it
transparency out in the open public because
there are too many people who want to do
backbittle deals and
All kinds of things because they don't want to
go through the test of the debate
They don't want to go through the scrutiny.
They don't want to argue it. They don't want to
defend it
They want it just to happen without them having
to explain Why?
So that's what happened
Yeah, that's interesting. Well because
especially because the case against the
university was based on the first amendment ironic
Yeah, which is different from a lot of other
gay rights cases that are sometimes based on
privacy sometimes on equal protection
This was really a free speech and free assembly
case. It certainly was Yeah
What do you remember about the kiss at the
center of the universe? Do you remember this?
Wow? Yes, that was something
Um, it's a wonderful. It was a wonderful
experience. Um, and again, you know, you just
kind of think like I why how
How was that in that mindset? Um
You know there was uh, I don't remember where
the idea came up about doing this thing this kissathon
On on Valentine's day in the middle of kyle
field center of the universe, right?
and uh
At the time I was dating a guy named David Kerr
um, which
I thought he was the greatest thing. I I mean
really it was like I was just like oh man
Definitely was my favorite of my days in college
and uh
uh, you know, uh, so we were dating
And this came up and he was the president of
the trinity Gay student group as it turned out
right so
Uh, so we you know, we commiserated a lot of things
So I don't remember how but I remember we
decided we're gonna do this thing
We're gonna we're gonna go and let's just let's
just do the Kissathon. Why shouldn't we be able
to do it?
Right why we can do it?
and um
There were some gay individuals who
Heard us talk about this who were in student government
Who did not want us to do it and they told uh
people in the administration that we're going
to do this
so they
called me in
and I don't remember exactly which
Which administration officer it was but it was
I remember in the memorial student center
And they called me and said we want to talk to
you about what you're planning to do at the Kissathon
I was like, how does he even know right?
So I went and talked to him. He says I
understand that you guys are planning on some
kind of demonstration
at the Kissathon
And I said, no, I'm not we're not there's no
demonstration. We're just just gonna go
attend well, but isn't that a demonstration I
said well
I don't think so. I'm not gonna bring banners
or anything. I'm just gonna go
Like anybody goes, you know with my partner
David. We're not planning to do anything other
than just be there and participate
And he goes well I'm asking you to please not
do it
People don't you know people are uh are worried
about this and the commotion the controversy,
you know
And that you guys are planning some kind of
protest. Uh, and I just said look I'm not
planning any protests
uh at all
as far as for me
There's not going to be anything
But if other people do it, I can't speak for
what you guys are going to do, right?
And then he did something very interesting
Uh, it's just amazing these are and I have lots
of moments like this, but he did something interesting
He says so at that point he says he went over
and closed the door
And he said Marco, I just wanted to know a lot
of us support you
And then he got off of his chair opened the
door back up again. He says well
Anyway, just please consider what I'm telling
you, you know about not not doing this thing
and I'm like wow
I don't even know what he's telling me now. Is
he saying go ahead or not, right?
Uh, so he's telling me officially maybe someone
told him tell him don't do it, but then
I just remember that step like why is he
getting up to close his door because he was
talking to me with the door open
And then he closes it and then there's this
little thing that he says and then get you know
Just opens the door again and it's strange
So we did it. Uh, we did work it out with swamp
the guys
The folks at swamp the reason we did it was
because so I talked I can't remember even
You know, I should know his name now. It's been
so many years the guy who was leading it but
Because I worked with him in the time, but
Uh, I told him about our idea. I said look what
I you know, David and I want to go to the Kissathon
But we are concerned about how people might
react and I think that if you guys come around us
With us like as in a circle you will give some
some kind of a psychological barrier
You know that will keep people from reacting
negatively to it, right?
Uh and say yeah, sure. We'll do it. We'll come
with you
So they brought their couples their you know,
the you know, boyfriends and girlfriends they
all came
And I think it must have been I think at least
four other couples and us
So it was David and me and then them right and
we all went there and you know, it's interesting
I mean, it was kind of you know, it's it's 1985
you know
In this little bit of the world
There are all these people that are perfectly
friendly with gay people these group right here
They're just like this little bubble of
universe, you know, it's moving into this other space
But it is kind of like this little space that's
moving along with you into Kyle field
that is a space of
It's all everything's okay
and so, um
We were there and of course when we're walking
in there people can't tell how they're not
counting how many boys and girls there are
Right, you know thousands of people. I think it
was 1500 couples right in the shape of a heart
in the middle of kyle field
and um
and then the 92nd kiss begins
There were people with cameras. I guess they
knew that we were coming and all of a sudden
you see these flashes like right at us
one of the
photos, I do believe is
It's in Wikipedia
I think it's on there
I believe so. I think that's where I first saw.
Yes. Uh, and then there's a mirror image of it
Like the shadow version of it in the yearbook
Uh, I think it's the 1985
Yearbook 86. Yeah, it must be the 85 yearbook. Yes
1985 yearbook and it's in there somebody I had
not seen it until years later
Uh, and it doesn't mention who is there or
whatever, but it's you can easily see. Oh,
that's us. That's that's that's me and David
but um people
I was told that they somebody saw one of the
guys that was outside of our circle like
His eyes opened wide
uh while he was kissing his girlfriend realizing
That we were in front of him, right?
And they said yeah, but he he you know, you saw
him like this look of shock on his face
For like a moment his eyes went wide
He said but then after like a couple of seconds
He just went back closed his eyes again and
kicked back to his girlfriend and that was the
end of that
Nothing else happened
Um, and nobody else reacted. I don't know how
many people even noticed it, right?
uh, so, uh
But it was a great experience. I I really felt
like wow
This is uh, this is nice and it was nice
because I really had very deep affection for
for for David
Um, I still do even all these years. I mean I
do think of him very fondly
And uh, it was a great time with him. And so
this was something special that we were able to
share together
Yeah, that's great. That's a great story
Um, well I'm gonna ask Sarah Sarah, do you have
any questions you think we should ask Mr
Roberts before we let him go. You can call me
Marco. I mean
I appreciate the politeness though. Sure
This has been great marco. I I really
appreciate it
I think we got a lot of really great material
here that we can use in the episode
Okay, so thank you
Uh, so we're gonna stop recording