In the beginning, there was homosexuality.
Homosexuality has existed in every age and
culture in which we have record.
According to Professor Paul Brand of Lipzig University,
the oldest written reference dates back 4,500 years.
An Egyptian papyrus shows that homosexuality
was widespread at that time
and was presumed to exist among the gods as a
matter of course.
Well, I've known Phil Johnson for years,
and he's called the grandfather of the Gay
movement in Texas
because he founded the first Gay organization
in Texas, in Dallas, I think in 1963.
And he's simply a tireless, relentless advocate
of gay and lesbian rights.
The first Gay Pride in Texas was held in Dallas
in June 1972.
Incidentally, this picture that you see won a
Pulitzer Prize for the Times-Herald photographer.
But we were afraid, afraid that the police
would find a way to arrest us despite our brave remit,
or that they would not protect us as they had
promised should the crowd attack us.
And so we were resolute, we would march.
As my call was chosen to lead the parade, yes,
would you know,
I planned to be the first one at the assembly point.
But when I arrived at the Kennedy Memorial
Square, I found others waiting.
All of them were female impersonators, all of
them were resplendently gown,
and all of them were black.
And they were the ones with the guts.
The 500,000 people who poured into the nation's
capital for the second National March on
Washington in 1987
is proof that we will never stop fighting for
our rights.
Now there was a time when gay men and lesbians
had no history, no culture,
and no love for ourselves or for each other.
Only in the last few years have we become a
community fighting for our rights.
But by fighting for our rights, we are in
effect fighting for everyone's rights.
Because the Gay community is male and female,
black and white,
Hispanic and Jewish, old and young.
Ours is the only community that contains within
it every other community and every other
community's issue.
So you and I have the opportunity, indeed, the responsibility,
to do something that's never been done before
in the history of humankind.
That is to create a family that is
multi-linguistic, multi-religious, and multi-colored.
We can provide the seed and a model for the
dream that the whole world has always longed for.
A world in which there is no more war, no more
destruction of the environment,
no more mass hunger and overpopulation, and no
more hatred.
If we do not succeed, then the world is lost.
Because the gay and lesbian community, being so
all-inclusive, is the world's last, best hope.
Thank you.
Good afternoon to our viewers.
I'm Tom Doyle, and I'm your host for this
one-hour segment
of a live call-in cable television program
dealing with the March on Austin for Lesbian
Gay Equal Rights.
An event that is in progress this afternoon
through tomorrow and on into Monday
with a lobby day where a number of people from
around the state,
the Lesbian Gay community, will call on their legislators
and express their opinions about the issues
pending in front of the legislature
and the Lesbian Gay community of Texas.
The March on Austin grew out of a similar event
in October of 87,
a march on Washington in which there were
600,000 lesbians and gays
marching for equal rights at the national level.
When we all returned back to our respective
state capitals,
these kinds of events began to spring up across
the country in state capitals.
We're very pleased to have with us as our guest
on this segment of the program
Mr. Glenn Maxey.
Glenn is the executive director of the Lesbian
Gay Rights Lobby of Texas
and has been one of the chief people in putting
together the events of the weekend.
Glenn, we're into it now, and I know you've put
in some crushing hours
over the last couple of weeks as this thing
came together.
How does it look to you now?
If you're out on the streets of Austin this afternoon,
a sunny Saturday afternoon, you'll see lots and
lots of gay men and lesbians
from all across this state here.
When we wrote the grant almost a year and a
half ago
to the March on Washington Committee for the
seed money for this event,
we thought, I put in that, when I wrote that grant,
if we had 5,000 people on the state lawn of the
State Capitol building,
it would be an impressive sight for equal
rights in Texas
and bring our message to the state Capitol.
I'm really excited to say that it's only the
middle of Saturday afternoon,
and I would easily say that there are 5,000
people from out of town
already in Austin.
The excitement's there.
We built a whole weekend of events around this.
The March itself is at noon on Sunday,
but the events actually started yesterday afternoon
and won't be over until late Monday afternoon.
What's your best guess about how many lesbians
and gay men
and people who favor equal rights for lesbians
and gay men
will participate in the activities of the weekend?
I mean, what's your guess?
It's hard to predict.
We've never done this kind of outreach to the
lesbian and Gay community
and our supporters across the state,
but it's probably the best organized outreach
to all the disparate groups across the state
that make up the lesbian and gay community and
our supporters.
And I would think that we will easily have
15,000 people here,
and I won't be surprised if that swells to as
many as 25,000 or more.
Particularly for the March on Sunday.
Now, what time is the March on Sunday?
The March itself begins at Dishfield
by the Austin Coliseum and Palmer Auditorium at noon.
That's when we march off,
and we'll be marching behind the banner that says
Life, Liberty, Justice for All,
the March on Austin for Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights.
Will there be speakers at the rally point?
Yeah, there will be people at the assembly that
will be speaking,
different kinds of community leaders,
and some live musical entertainment.
We're urging people that are interested in
joining us,
and we hope everyone does if you're a supporter
of equal rights,
to join in this march.
To get here early, though, we're asking people
to assemble at 10,
because the traffic and parking for 15,000 people
will be tremendously difficult.
So we begin gathering in the speaking, and
music begins at 10.
The march itself will step off at noon.
And what are some of the major events that are
planned throughout the weekend?
I know we're at 4:00 on Saturday afternoon.
I know a lot of things went on yesterday.
What was happening yesterday?
Well, we had an open house at Driscoll Hotel,
which is sort of our flagship hotel from the
March last night,
as people came into town.
Live Wire Production, which is a non-profit
women's music organization
here in Austin, sponsored a concert
with Teresa Trull and Diane Davidson at the
Crest last night,
which was a wonderful show.
The Lambda Students Organization,
which are organizations of students from around
the state,
had a reception at the Driscoll.
We began this morning with the American Gay
Atheist Breakfast at the Driscoll.
There's been all-afternoon workshops and seminars,
as disparate as the Human Rights Campaign Fund,
which is a national political organization
doing workshops on federal legislation and
political activity.
The Lesbian Gay Rights Lobby, which I'm
affiliated with,
doing workshops on state public policy,
workshops on lesbian issues, on religious issues.
I'm very proud of the Austin Interfaith Group
for putting together a whole series of workshops
dealing with homosexuality in the Bible,
the different aspects of our religious community.
Those things are going on as we speak.
Now, there's been a number of street activities,
such as the ACT UP groups,
which are the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power,
which do demonstrations about AIDS issues.
I did a series of demonstrations yesterday afternoon.
They're targeted with the State Board of Insurance,
who have adopted and continue to not regulate
the insurance industry as they should,
dealing with AIDS.
Another target was the Texas Education Agency,
where they spoke about the Texas Education
Agency's lack of leadership
in getting AIDS education into our schools at
an early age,
when it's very vital.
They also stopped by the Texas Association of Realtors.
The Texas Association of Realtors have a policy
right now
of asking realtors to disclose the diagnosis of AIDS,
a totally irrational policy that we're trying
to overturn at the legislature,
and I think that we'll be successful with that.
But they stopped by there to tell the Texas
Association of Realtors,
very vocally, that you can't get AIDS from a house.
They ended at the governor's mansion
with a little bit of noise and fall drawl to
wake up Governor Clements yet again.
They in the past tried to wake him up early in
the morning.
They tried to get him during his afternoon nap yesterday
to wake up about the AIDS crisis in Texas.
As we speak now, the workshops in the Lesbian
and Gay Community College
are finishing up at 4:30 on the Supreme Court steps.
There will be a citizens' tribunal,
an event that I think is very interesting and a
lot of fun.
There's a prosecutor who will be, and a judge,
and a jury,
and the jury are all the participants that are there.
Charges will be brought against a whole group
of people,
starting at the President of the United States
through some of the more homophobic
congressional people
such as Representative Vandermeier and Senator
Jesse Helms.
There will be actions or charges brought
against some state legislators,
state agency heads, people who have done things
aimed at the gay and lesbian community
and specifically at the AIDS epidemic that have
been irrational
or very not helpful to dealing with the issues
at hand.
That's an incredible range of activities and
subject material,
even of what's happened already up to date.
What are some of the chief goals of the March
on Austin?
What are some of the reforms being sought?
There is a very well-articulated list of goals
of this march
that we have adopted through much deliberation
and committee hearings.
It begins at the basic adoption of basic equal
civil rights for gay men and lesbians.
It goes on down the list of asking for the
repeal of the Texas Homosexual Conduct Statute,
which makes criminals of gay men and lesbians
in this state.
It continues with issues dealing with
nondiscrimination for people in access to employment,
including being in the military or being in law enforcement.
Issues dealing with right of privacy, both
sexual and reproductive.
Issues of economic justice for people that are
gay men and lesbians
and people of color and the other minorities
that make up the coalition of groups
that seem to be sort of put down upon by
government and the society at large.
We're real pleased that our goals pull in an
inclusive kind of thing
because gay and lesbian civil rights are not a
single-shot issue.
Gay men and lesbians don't come in one color,
one class, one neighborhood.
We're all economic stratas, we're all races,
all religions or non-religions.
We are everywhere. We're all kinds of people.
So our agenda is very difficult to pinpoint
because we are such different kinds of people.
A common thread is to get equal rights for gay
men and lesbians as the rest of society.
I want to, before we come back to some stuff
that's going to be going on later this evening
and tomorrow and on into Monday,
I'd like to remind our viewers that we will be
taking your telephone calls live here on the show
after the first 15 minutes of this program.
We'll put the number on the screen and announce
it to you.
And you can call in if you have questions or comments
related to the kinds of material that we're
dealing with today,
the March on Austin for Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights,
and we have with us Glenn Maxey, the Executive
Director of the Lesbian and Gay Rights Lobby.
Now, Glenn, we've talked about some of the
events that have gone on,
what some of the major goals are,
and I'll say I'm really pleased that there is
this acknowledgement of diversity in our community.
It leads me to be a great strength and not
something that we ought to be afraid of,
but that we ought to treasure, that it does
make us stronger.
We do have many voices.
And then as we come together in a common goal
for equal rights
and generally for a more just society,
not just freedom from discrimination based on
sexual orientation,
but some of the other issues that you mentioned
as well.
Tell us what else is coming up.
Well, following the tribunal that's going on in
a few minutes,
at 6 p.m. today will be the unfolding of the
AIDS quilt,
the National Names Project.
The Names Project is a national and
international AIDS memorial
where people who've lost a friend, a son, a
lover, a family member
make a three-foot by six-foot panel of fabric
commemorating that person's life.
That quilt now has grown to approximately
12,000 panels
and is one of the larger both memorials that's
ever been created in the world
and also one of the largest art projects or
works of art that's ever been created.
It's a very emotional, very moving memorial.
We're very pleased that on its tour this year
of parts of the quilt,
about a tenth of it's on tour,
and about 1,000 panels will be displayed
beginning at 6 p.m. today
through dusk tomorrow at the Palmer Auditorium.
And the viewers should really try to stop by there
to see both the love that went into making
those memorial panels
for people who died of AIDS
as well as just experiencing the emotion and
the talent and caring
that went into that artwork.
The quilt has been just an incredible phenomenon.
It was something that seemed to immediately
capture the imagination.
There were so many of us caught up in the AIDS crisis
who wanted some way of expressing the grief,
the sense of loss,
and two, a sense of coming together with other
people who were suffering in the same way.
And I can't see it without a handkerchief in hand.
Every time I think I've seen everything and
I've had every feeling about it,
I see a particular panel that's poignant or
touching or funny.
The whole thing is incredibly moving.
And for people who haven't seen it, or even if
you've seen an earlier incarnation of it,
come to Palmer Auditorium and see the quilt.
It's a fantastic project.
Glenn, we need to take a little break right here.
And I'll say to our viewers that we'll be back live
and we'll be taking your calls in the next
segment of the show.
I want to hear what you have to say about the
March on Austin for Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights.
If you have any questions of our guest, Glenn Maxey.
We have other guests who will be dropping in
with us in this hour.
Lucina Kaffman, author of a book, who's here
signing at Liberty Books this afternoon,
here in the city and meeting with some other groups.
She wrote a novel called The Magnificent
Adventure of Brawny Mouse and the Magnificent Kong.
It's sort of a long title, and I think I messed
it up.
But be back with us.
And we're also going to talk with Linda Morales,
one of the plaintiffs in the court challenge to
Section 2106 of the Texas Penal Code.
This is the latest effort on behalf of the
Texas Lesbian Gay community
to remove this fundamental legal impediment
to the realization of equal civil liberties for
lesbians and gay men throughout the state of Texas.
So stay with us.
We want to answer your questions.
We need your comments.
We want you to meet our other guests.
Thanks for being with us.
I think that a lesbian Gay bookstore is very important
because it's a way that we communicate to
ourselves what gay and lesbian life is like.
Hi, my name is Paula Caniffa for Austin
Community Television,
and we're here with Kobe Johnson and Kip Dollar
at Liberty Books.
Oh, hi.
What do you feel the place of an establishment
such as this is in the gay community?
How politicized do you feel it should be?
Well, I can keep going.
It's political just being here in the sense
that it changes society.
Education is the most important political tool
the Gay Movement has done,
and I think it's primarily education, again, of
our own people.
A bookstore like this, with all of this
literature and fiction and nonfiction
and psychology and self-help and spirituality
and healthy erotica,
all of these are ways that gay men and lesbians
learn what their life experiences can be.
And I think by having good books like this
instead of silly books or misrepresentative books,
we provide role models for people.
And you have to preserve the history of the Gay movement.
Otherwise, we're just condemned to go through
the same struggles over and over again.
The store is rich in history.
I noticed you have a large, well, what seems to
be a large community outreach.
You have pamphlets. A table over there?
Yes, yes.
It's constantly overflowing.
We function as a kind of information center.
We've got this book, I mean, bulletin board
over here
with all kinds of announcements of things that
are going on in the community.
And over here, we've got a bulletin board that
has got business cards
of gay professionals and business people in Austin
so that the community can find each other.
People want their lives to be good.
You know, for years, gay people were told that
our lives were not any good.
We never experienced that to be true,
but a lot of us, I'm afraid, sort of bought
into it
and thought we didn't have much else available
to us.
Now we're realizing that we can live at least
as little lives as the heterosexuals
and perhaps even better lives.
That's what all this is about.
Good afternoon, viewers. Thanks for coming back
with us.
We're in the second segment of the March on Austin
for Lesbian Gay Equal Rights live cable
television talk show.
We have been joined by another guest, Dennis Hatch,
who's co-chair of the March on Austin.
Dennis, thanks for coming by.
Thank you. Good to be here.
Tell me a little bit now, I've talked with
Glenn in the first segment of the show
about some things that have already happened
during the course of this weekend
and some of the chief goals of the March on Austin.
Tell me what's coming up after this afternoon.
What kinds of events are planned into the evening?
Okay, I think Glenn has covered up to the names project,
the unfolding of which will be tonight at 6:30.
Also this evening, we will have a banquet at
the Hyatt Hotel.
Our featured speaker will be Harry Britt,
who is the president of the San Francisco Board
of Supervisors.
He is the man who replaced Harvey Milk some ten
years ago
after Supervisor Milk's assassination.
He's also a native of Port Arthur, Texas,
so we thought there was a certain balance to that.
Bringing somebody home to Texas.
The banquet, we think, will be a very
successful event.
It's met with a good deal of success throughout
the state.
We're going to have people from everywhere there.
The People of Color Caucus is going to have a reception
also at the Hyatt this evening, too.
Some of the speakers will be at the rally
tomorrow at the March.
They will be in attendance this evening.
Following the banquet also at the Hyatt,
which, as you can tell, is going to be the
place to be
for at least the early part of the evening,
will be a Tejano dance.
That's sponsored by ALGO,
the Austin Latino and Lesbian Gay Organization.
Tell me, you have a moment of calm here.
Being on live television,
it must be the calmest you've been in days
trying to get all this stuff together.
You're very perceptive.
How do you feel at this point,
seeing all these people that are on the streets
of Austin?
All these events are coming off as they were envisioned.
It's very heartening.
For work, I had to go down to San Antonio this morning.
As I was coming back into town,
we're everywhere.
We always say that.
We really are everywhere around this city right now.
It's good to be here on TV.
It's also great to be in Austin this weekend.
I think it's very exhilarating.
It's a real recap of that energy
that was in Washington
for the March on Washington in October of 87.
It's incredible that this is coming off
in Texas, in Austin, today.
I think those of us who were in Washington,
I'm sure the idea came to us all
that this is the thing we need to do in Austin
as well.
It's great to see it coming off.
We've got a caller.
Let's see what's on the line here.
Let's see if they have questions for you.
Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hello?
I was wondering what bills y'all were trying to
get repealed
or laws you were trying to get changed,
specifically having to do with parenthood.
Okay, thanks for the question.
I think I'm going to turn that over to Glenn Maxey,
who's the executive director of the Lesbian Gay
Rights Lobby.
We will talk a little bit about the legislation
that's pending,
and we'll ask him to pay particular attention
to questions that have to do with parenting
for lesbians and gay men.
Thanks for calling.
Hold on a Sec. Yeah.
I'd like to respond.
All right, good. Hold on. Glenn, take it.
Well, the Lesbian Gay Rights Lobby
has a full legislative agenda this session.
I'll be sort of brief, but we're monitoring
as lead lobby 25 pieces of legislation.
I have another 36 that we are working in
coalition on,
another 116 that affect gay men and lesbians
in some kind of form or fashion.
Talking about gay and lesbian issues
at the state legislature
is not exactly the easiest topic to deal with.
The legislation, of course,
starts with a gay and lesbian civil rights bill
that gives equal rights to gay men and lesbians
in the state.
Would that include parenting?
It does.
Basically, it doesn't go that far.
At this point,
it takes every place in State statute
where other groups are protected,
discrimination based on sex, disability, race,
color, creed,
and added sexual orientation.
I think that perhaps in some form or fashion
as we walk through those issues,
most of the parenting issues in this state
are based on the laws that are there
on the best interest of the child.
The laws specifically don't prohibit
two gay men or two lesbians
from having family situations
in custody of their children.
It comes down to how the court system discriminates,
how prosecutors or how the legal system
works against us
because we don't have an equal treatment system.
Because we don't have an equal chance in the society
because of all the other laws that are out there.
Because we, in fact, are criminals under statute,
because of our sexual orientation,
our sexual behavior,
it becomes much more difficult then
for us to deal with the parenting issue
because that can be used against us.
It's sort of a catch-22 we're in.
So we have to go back to the very source of the problem,
try to deal with repealing 2106,
which is the Homosexual Conduct Statute.
And once you've done that,
we begin that process of breaking down the
other barriers.
Removing the stigma.
Caller, is that any help to you?
Well, yeah, I was just wondering
what your plan of action was.
See, my father was a homosexual. Yeah.
And, well, you know,
I can't, it's hard for me to grasp
why, you know,
anyone would want to put a child
through that kind of thing.
Sure, it's a tough problem.
One of the things I think that the Gay
community has done
is to allow sort of the fundamentalist right
to take the family issue
that Lesbians and gay men have the same families
that everyone else has.
The families we were born into
and the families that we built for ourselves in
adult life.
Thank you for calling.
Let's take our next caller.
Good afternoon, you're on the air.
We got tired of waiting on us.
Oh, hello? Yes.
I have kind of a two-part question. Sure.
The first part is I'm 40 years old
and I am...
Let me turn down my TV. Sure.
I'm 40 years old.
Can you hear me?
Yes, I can hear you.
I am a heterosexual
and in all my job encounters that I've had
I have never once been asked
what my sexual preferences were.
My question is
if I engaged in a heterosexual act in public
I would be arrested. Yes.
Whether it be against the law or not.
Yes, there are laws prohibiting public...
The thing that I don't understand about homosexuals
is if you're not going to engage
in homosexual activity in public
then why be concerned about restricting
or removing the law that's on the book already? Sure.
That's a good question
because a lot of people don't understand
what the difficulty is with that
and we'll discuss that now.
Thanks for calling.
One of the problems I think
with getting some movement
behind the repeal of 2106
which is the Sodomy statute
in the Texas Penal Code
is that it is infrequently
and selectively enforced
and it applies to conduct in private
between consenting adults.
Sexual conduct.
And Glenn, I'd like you to pick up on that.
Well, I give a few examples.
A custody case in the city
where the judge looked at
what was the best interest of the child.
Clearly it was to stay with the lesbian mother.
That was the best interest.
The father was not stable at all
and was violent.
But in that deliberation
just the mere fact
that the mother might have violated
the state Sodomy statute
because she was a lesbian
was used against her
in that custody situation.
Ultimately she won that case.
But there is a situation
this woman certainly never had public sex
but the existence of the law
was taken into consideration
about her custody case.
I am an elementary school teacher
by training.
When I left teaching
to work at the legislature in 1981
they said to me
you are the best role model
we have for these 5th graders.
You are the father figure.
You are the only man
many of them have in their lives.
We want you to stay here.
Well, I couldn't go back right now.
I can't go back to Niavota, Texas
and become an award winning
5th grade teacher again.
Teacher of the year.
I can't do that again
not because I've ever practiced sex in public
but because of the fact
that the legislature
by criminalizing us
now has put me in the position
that I would never be able
to teach in elementary school.
Not that I would ever abuse a child
that's a ludicrous kind of thought
but because of the fact
that because I admit that I am a gay man
there is an assumption
that I am violating a penal code statute
and because of moral issues
moral interpreted issues
I could lose my license as a teacher.
That's the card of it.
It's that it's used against people
in very irrational ways.
I know in my work
with the Texas Human Rights Foundation
when I served as legal director there
that the questions concerning
discrimination in employment
were a large part of the work we did.
People who inadvertently revealed
something about their personal life at work
a privilege that most heterosexuals
take for granted
going in the office on Monday morning
and saying, well, what did you do this weekend?
Well, we took the kids and went on a picnic
with a whole class of people
who must feel
that they must keep their mouth shut
about who they are and how they live
and what their private lives are like.
That was the caller's comment
that nobody ever asked him
about his sexual orientation at work.
Well, that's because you haven't ever had to say
that the person
the guy who calls on the phone every morning
just like your wife may call you
the person who calls me each morning
at work to find out
what we're going to have for supper that night
is the same kind of problem.
Some hints are dropped.
You never have to be asked.
All of a sudden, the questions are answered
before they're ever asked.
I want to say to Glenn and Dennis,
thanks for being with us
and hope you'll stay for a few minutes.
We're going to talk some more,
take a few more calls.
This is Tom Doyle with the March on Austin
for Lesbian, Gay Equal Rights
live cable television talk show.
We hope you'll be with us.
After we take a little break,
we'll talk about some of the goals
of the March on Austin.
We want to thank you for being with us this afternoon
and hope you'll stay with us after the break. Thanks.
What does Homophobia mean to you?
Have you heard the term?
Oh, yeah.
It's an unreasoned fear of homosexuality.
I think it's people's fears
of homosexuality.
Both men and women.
I think it's people's fears
of homosexuality.
I think it's people's fears
of Homophobia.
Do you think that's a bad thing
for themselves and other people?
Well, Homophobia to me
is just like any other kind of prejudice
where it causes a lot of damage
in society, in my view.
I think that there are a lot
of misconceptions about gay people
and it just causes a lot
of unfair treatment of people.
A lot of talents are inhibited,
a lot of creativity is inhibited
because of its existence.
I wouldn't know.
I couldn't tell you.
Do you have any guess?
Have you ever heard of it?
What does Homophobia mean to you?
I don't know. Homophobia.
Excuse me.
I think it's
an adverse feeling, I guess,
towards homosexuals.
I'm usually afraid of queers.
It makes me angry.
It's really detrimental
on the non-open-minded people
that Homophobia acts.
They don't give equal chances
and they don't recognize
people that homosexuals are the first.
It's also sort of frightening
to me because
it seems to be so rampant.
I mean, I don't have
any fear of it.
I mean, it's not that big of a deal.
It's their life.
I think that's kind of stupid
because everybody's a person
and everybody has rights.
Homophobia to me means
fear and prejudice
against homosexuals.
How it affects me personally
is how I'm treated
maybe when I go out
somewhere with my girlfriend.
I'm sitting in a restaurant
and I have someone come
and turn around and look at me
not with just surprise
but with disgust
or I fear for myself
and my girlfriend
throughout the public.
I guess it can mean a lot
of things to different people
but it's often the feeling
that I have about myself
when I'm with my girlfriend
or if I look like I'm
obviously a lesbian
and how I'm treated
and other people's fears
all that terrorizing
is the homophobia
that is inside of me
that prevents me from
doing what I want
that prevents me from
appearing the way I would like
to appear or the way
I really feel that I am.
It's like being in the Dairy Queen
in Goliad, Texas
and being jeered at
and realizing
it's always having to
suddenly be aware of
if I'm safe or not.
I wonder if I am safe
and I'm really safe
not just like embarrassed
but safe.
Well what I think
Homophobia represents
is oppression
and it's oppression
that for too long
we have recognized
as just a part of society
that we can't liberate this oppression
if we're going to be
truly liberated.
So that's what I think
this march represents
is liberation
from this oppression
and what I think
if we want this march
to be successful
if we want it to mean anything
we have to recognize
the other forms of oppression
that exist in society
and we need to form
as Americans, women
every minority group
we all need to connect
recognize our oppression
and do something about it.
Without this, the march is fruitless.
There's no point.
Good afternoon.
Thanks for being back with us after our break.
I'm Glenn Maxwell,
host of this program
for the March on Austin
for Lesbian Gay Equal Rights.
This is a live call-in television show.
We'd like you to call us
with your questions and comments
at 478-9425. 478-9425.
Let us hear from you.
We'd like to talk to you this afternoon.
Our guest in this segment
joining Glenn Maxey and myself
is Lucina Kaffman
who is a writer
and she has written
The Adventure of the Magnificent Kong
and Brawny Mouse
a wonderfully funny lesbian novel
and I have to reveal
my conflict of interest here.
I'm the publisher of this book
and I love it a lot.
It's available here in Austin
at Bookwoman, at Liberty Books
and at most lesbian Gay community
bookstores around the country.
I wanted to ask you though, Lucina,
today about not just this book
but your work as a writer.
How long have you been living
in San Miguel?
Well, I've lived in San Miguel
about 12 years
and I did a great deal
of traveling around
in all of Latin America
before I finally settled down
in San Miguel.
I'm just attracted.
I went every place
and I kept returning to San Miguel
because it was an easy place for me
and finally I just never left.
Now some of this book
is a wonderful book
I say in a self-serving kind of way
as its publisher
but I love it a lot
but tell us about the book a little bit
about these two women and their adventure.
Brawny Mouse and King Kong
are an interracial lesbian couple.
They're in their 30s.
Brawny Mouse comes from
the right side of the tracks.
We don't know very much
about exactly how
and King Kong is a large
lesbian couple
from the wrong side of the tracks.
She's a wonderfully
articulate person.
She's a Chicagoan
and a special down-home
Chicagoan, special Chicago type.
Now you have a connection
with Chicago too.
Right, right.
I lived in Chicago
before I lived in Latin America.
I lived in Chicago
quite a few years
of my adult life
and I've heard a lot
about monogamy
in their relationship.
There are other issues as well
but that's the one that
hangs them up the worst.
They go away on a trip
sort of a dream trip
to Acapulco
and one of the focuses
of this trip for them
is to work on this
difference between them.
Right, they think
that if they get away
they used to have
a very good relationship
until Brawny Mouse
found out about
King Kong's other women
and they're hoping
to get back to this
to the good feelings
that they had before
and they're going to try
to do it on a vacation
in Acapulco.
How do you work as a writer?
I mean do you have
certain times of day
that I think I would have
more of a routine
if I didn't have
two small children
as it is whenever
I have a free moment
I do whatever I can do
in that free moment
and I have become
supremely practical
and I know what
if I get five minutes
I know what kind of
a five minute task
I have waiting for me
to get to a point
where I can say
well I'm at my best
at nine a.m.
and therefore I have
to do it at nine a.m.
or never.
I wouldn't really be able
to finish anything
if I insisted on that.
You have to write
when you can.
I write when I can
but I like it very much.
It's really not
I think PEN
stands for
Poets and Essays
and Novelists
but it's a group of
writers all over the world.
There are 84 pen chapters.
Some of them are in Thailand
and some are in
there's one in Senegal
and they're all over the place
and ours is the one
in San Miguel De Allende
which there's another
one in Mexico.
Mostly Americans and Canadians
that are choosing to live in Mexico.
There's also another chapter
in Mexico City
that's the Spanish speaking pen
and I'm
corresponding secretary
of my chapter
which it's kind of odd
to be an English speaking
writer in Mexico.
When we go to pen conventions
we get these little
pins that say Mexico
and then we're hailed
as the Latin brother.
Now how many
English language writers
live part of the year
in San Miguel?
Well I don't know
but we have 30 members
that pay dues
and I don't know
some of them might not
be there every year
and also our
entrance requirements
are nowhere as strict
as some of the pen groups
and you have to be
writing for a while.
It can't be just
something you did this week
and we really might have
some writers that
wouldn't otherwise
qualify in other groups.
I'm looking at the phone
and I see we've got
another caller.
Let's see what they're
going to ask us now.
Hello you're on the air. Tom?
Thank you for the
reruns of Lesbian and Gay
Straight Talk.
Thank you.
I would appreciate it
if you would sort of
shall we say update it a
little bit now and then.
I think a good forum
for that show would be
such as this one
a call in
for young guys
like say 18, 19, 20
and have someone
give their ideas
on how it was for them
coming out and if they
have any questions and
wondering what it's like
and stuff like that.
Mr. Maxey I would like
to congratulate you on
your lobbying at the
legislature and really
trying your hardest.
I see you all the time
on the news and I
am just really all
for someone as strong
as you are for all
of us and I'm
glad we have someone
like you.
And another question I'd
like to know if I can
get a March on Austin
T-Shirt somewhere. Sure.
There are March on
Austin t-shirts at
numerous locations around
the city.
Certainly at the
assembly at the rally
on the Capitol grounds
and at the Waterloo
Park Festival tomorrow afternoon.
If you're interested
tonight you can go by
the Driscoll Hotel which
is the headquarters
hotel and there are
volunteer stations set
up there or at the
Hyatt Regency Hotel tonight.
Any of those places.
Listen thanks for your
kind comments about
Glenn's work and about
the television show
Lesbian Gay Straight Talk.
We have talked about
doing a series on
coming out for that
program and good
positive feedback from
viewers sort of put
some new energy back
in that stuff.
It's sort of hard to
go down there and
spend that much time
on Saturday sometimes.
But thank you very
much for calling.
We appreciate it.
I see we have another caller.
Thank you.
Got somebody on the line?
Going to have somebody
on the line?
What's your advice to
new writers?
Got anything you want
to say to people who
are out there thinking
that they might be writers?
Maybe they're not
published yet?
There is well I have
to ask the specific
person but there are
I think that the best
is to enjoy the work.
I mean that's one of
my best pieces of
my best suggestions
because the situation
is horrible.
I mean you will
never, you won't
probably get whatever
you want in the way
of publication and
fame and fortune
certainly not fortune
and maybe not at all.
And in the meantime
you've got to live
your life.
And I wrote this
book a couple of
years ago.
It's called
The Gay
Straight Talk.
And it's a
wonderful book.
It's a wonderful book.
And I wrote this
book that we're
talking about now
ten years ago and
in the meantime
I'd given up long
since on ever
publishing it.
And I just found
a way of writing
that I enjoyed and
I didn't quit because
I liked it.
And if that's the
situation with a
writer who's
listening in well
go ahead.
Why not do it?
You know I really
have nothing much
more to say than that.
It is your right
to enjoy your life
any way you want.
No matter what
situation you're in.
Enjoy your life
any way you want.
No magic Huh?
No magic advice?
I want to remind
our television viewers
to call us at 478-9425.
We're talking
with Lucina
Kaffman, the
author of The
Adventure of
Magnificent Kong
and Brawny
Mouse, a novel
about two lesbians
and their
relationship together
and how they
resolve issues
between them and
have a great
adventure in doing
All of this is in
conjunction with
A March on
Gay Rights.
Lucina Kaffman
is here at
book signings at
bookstores around
town with her
new novel.
We have with us as
a guest Glenn
Maxey, the
executive director
of the Lesbian
Gay Rights Lobby
of Texas.
We're having a
grand weekend in Austin.
I hope you're
participating in
some of these
events and thank
you for being
viewing with us
this afternoon.
Lucina, you want
to read us a
little passage from
your novel.
Let us hear.
The passage I'm going
to read is not very
typical of the book
as a whole.
The book is mostly
humorous and this
passage is not.
And also this
passage is at the
end of the book
when, here I'm
giving away a piece
of information,
maybe I'm crazy to
do it, but
unfortunately the
Mouse and Kong,
their relationship
breaks up.
This passage
happens after
Bronnie Mouse
and King Kong
have been
married for
many, many years.
And this
passage is
when Bronnie
Mouse and King
Kong have
broken up and
Kong has gone
back to a hotel
room and is
talking to
Bronnie Mouse's
roommate about
the relationship
and what it has
meant to her.
You know,
Kong began, I
still believe that
up to two months
ago, I was
having the best
relationship I
ever had in my
whole life.
Then we
happened to
get married.
then we
got married.
then we
happened to
find out it
was all
based on a misunderstanding,
not just based
on another.
We purely
needed that
misunderstanding to
keep us going.
Once it went,
we could never
get nothing
together again,
no matter how
hard we tried.
Having it all
fall apart, well,
that ain't
nothing new for me.
I got enough
experience to
know that every
couple years or so,
my whole life
fucks up.
Twenty years
ago, I still
don't know exactly
what happened and
who all is still
out there laying
for me to cut my throat.
Ronnie Mouse
imagines that she
can live a
balanced life.
Well, all I can say
is we're not
coming out of the
same corner on that
one because I
never once in my
life saw anything
to give me that expectation.
But who gives a
shit about this green?
This ain't what I
live for.
Only thing I get
out of this life is
loving women.
However long or
short it lasts.
Whatever me and
Ronnie Mouse had,
you can say it
wasn't real.
It was just some
kind of a dream.
But whatever kind
of thing that was,
that's what I'm into.
That's the only kind
of thing that means
anything to me.
One time,
Ronnie Mouse and
me, we went to
this housing project
on the south side.
I was showing her
around different
places where I
grew up.
She'd go almost
any place.
The most low-down
place full of
bottles and beer
cans and gang
slogans on every
wall and garbage
all over and
nothing working.
I'd start to feel
like I should be
ashamed to take
anyone anywhere near.
And I'd talk to her.
I'd find out she'd
be getting something
completely different
out of the experience.
She dug it.
She'd pipe right
up, I'm learning
about America.
And then she'd
go on about how
the folks who
come up there from
Mississippi put her
in mind of some
other folks who
migrated in some
other century or
something like that.
Anyway, she didn't
get hung up on the
broken bottles,
that's for sure.
And who's to say
her idea is wrong
and mine is right?
I got more
experience in the
here and now, but
you know, there's
something in that
world she lives in, too.
I'd listen to
Brawny Mouse for a
while and pretty
soon I'd start to
see the prairie
under the concrete myself.
Anyway, as I was
saying about that
time when we went
to the Robert Taylor
homes, we had to
walk up nine
flights because the
elevator was broke
and nothing special
about that business
as usual.
When we got to
where I used to
live, Mousey
started to look
over the corridor
wall into the courtyard.
I had all kinds of
things to show her,
but I couldn't get
her to budge.
I let her alone for
a while, but finally
I said, Brawny
Mouse, what are
you doing?
There's nobody
down there.
There's nothing
down in that
courtyard but some
Raggedy, nappy
haired little girl
playing in a pile
of junk.
She told me,
I'm looking for a
little girl like
you, Kong.
A clever little
thing with long
legs and a
beautiful voice.
I want to see what
it's like to watch
you playing in
front of your house.
I can almost see
you down there now.
That gave me a
funny feeling right then.
I couldn't figure
out why, but it
gave me the creeps
more and more.
And then it
dawned on me.
Something I
hadn't thought about
for years and years.
When I was a kid,
oh this has got to
be 1954 or
something, just a
raggedy, forgotten
little girl getting
kicked around from
foster home to
relation to
orphanage and back.
I used to dream
about a woman who
was watching me.
Somebody who
cared about me
special, like a
good witch or a
fairy godmother or something.
I never did know
what she looked
like, only she
wasn't no raggedy
nappy haired gal
like the bunch of us.
What was she like?
Once I even had
the idea she was
looking down from
that same wall on
the ninth floor
near the elevator,
just where Brawny
Mouse was looking
down from.
But when I looked
up she turned invisible.
Still, I had to
believe she was
there, like you
believe in God or something.
A lot of things
happened that day to
distract us and the
long and short of it
was that I never
got around to telling
Brawny Mouse about
that dream of mine.
After that day,
Brawny Mouse was
always my good witch,
right along with all
the other stuff she
was to me.
But I'm too old to
pretend she's
invisible now.
I know she's gone.
King Kong moved
down in the bed and
turned to the wall.
Makes me so
goddamn tired, she mumbled.
Then she didn't say anymore.
Thank you.
Lucina Kafton, author
of a wonderful lesbian
novel called The
Adventure of the
Magnificent Kong and
Brawny Mouse.
Hope you'll read it.
It's great fun.
We need to take a
little break now and
we'll be back.
We want to remind you
that this is a live
call-in talk show and
that you can reach us
by calling 478-9425.
We're talking to
people who are our
guests today who are
involved in one way
or another with the
March on Austin for
Lesbian and Gay
Equal Rights this weekend.
Writer Kathman was here
in town at book signings.
We have with us Glenn
Maxey, the executive
director of the
Lesbian and Gay Rights Lobby.
We hope you're
participating in the
March on Austin for
Equal Rights for
Lesbians and Gay Men
and celebrating our
diversity as a
community, lesbian
and Gay community
across the state of
Texas, and celebrating
our unity and a vision
about a more just
society in which our
voices are heard.
Thank you.
We hope that our
rights are protected
and that we have the
same civil liberties
that every other
Texan and American enjoys.
Thanks for being with
us and come back and
be with us right after
the break.
In the beginning
there was homosexuality.
Homosexuality has
existed in every age
and culture in which
we have record.
According to
Professor Paul Brand
of Lipzig University,
the oldest written
reference dates back
4,500 years.
An Egyptian papyrus
shows that
homosexuality was
widespread at that
time and was
presumed to exist
among the gods as a
matter of course.
Well, I've known
Phil Johnson for
years, and I think
he's a great philosopher.
He's a great
he's called
the grandfather
of the
Gay movement
in Texas
because he founded
the first
gay organization
in Texas
in Dallas
I think in 1963.
And he's
simply a tireless
of gay and
lesbian rights.
The first gay
pride in Texas
was held in
Dallas in June 1972.
this picture
that you see
won a Pulitzer
Prize for the
Times Herald photographer.
But we were
afraid, afraid
that the police
would find a way
to arrest us
despite our
brave remit.
Or that they
would not protect
us as they
had promised
should the crowd
attack us.
Even so, we
were resolute.
We would march.
As my call
was chosen to
lead the parade,
I, yes,
would you know, I,
I planned to
be the first
one at the
assembly point.
But when I
arrived at the
Kennedy Memorial
Square, I
found others waiting.
All of them
were female impersonators.
All of them
were resplendently gowned.
And all of
them were black.
And they
were the ones
with the guns.
The 500,000
people who
poured into
the nation's
capital for the
second National
Arts on
Washington in
1987 is proof
that we will
never stop
fighting for
our rights.
Now there
was a time
when gay
men and
lesbians had
no history,
no culture,
and no love
for ourselves
or for each other.
Only in the
last few years
have we become
a community
fighting for
our rights.
But by fighting
for our rights,
we are in
the process of
Because the
gay community
is male and female,
black and white,
Hispanic and Jewish,
old and young.
Ours is the
only community
that contains
within it
every other
community and
every other community's
So you and
I have the opportunity,
the responsibility
to create a
family that
is multilinguistic, multireligious,
and multicolored.
We can
provide the
seed and
a model for
the dream that
the whole world
has always
longed for.
A world in
which there is
no more war,
no more
destruction of
the environment,
no more mass
hunger and overpopulation,
and no more hatred.
If we do not succeed,
then the
world is lost
because the
being so all-inclusive
is the world's
Thank you. (applause)
(music playing)
Thanks for
coming back
with us.
We'll be
back in a minute.
We'll be
back in a minute.
We'll be
back in a minute.
We'll be
back in a minute.
We'll be
back in a minute.
We'll be
back in minute.
We'll be
back in minute.
At any rate, just after my friend died, I
became familiarized with the quilt and started
making a panel for him.
And it was just before we had the display last
summer at the Capitol.
And from there, it's just been a major part of
my life.
It's been a very good focus for me initially as
a grieving mechanism and something positive
to do with my grief and anger and those kinds
of pains.
And then extending from that into seeing the
value of the quilt in terms of educating the
public on what AIDS is and who it affects and
fundraising all the money, all the donations
that come in this weekend will go for direct
services to people either in Austin or around
the state.
When I first saw the quilt in Washington, D.C.
in October of 87, in the early morning,
it was about 7 on a Sunday morning, still misty
on the mall there in D.C.
And just when I thought I had had all the
feelings I was going to have, I'd see another
panel that would have something funny on it or
something poignant on it or would be especially touching.
This went on for like two and a half hours
before I finally walked away exhausted.
I find it a very deep and moving experience and
I would say to people who are viewing
who have not seen the quilt, please see it.
It's a wonderful thing.
It's a very visual experience.
It's a very emotional experience.
It's just incredibly intense and it's very
positive and beautiful.
Okay, Mary, thank you for being with us and we
do encourage people to see the quilt project
on display at Palmer with the unfolding
ceremonies at 6.
Stay with us for the next program about the
quilt and more information about the March
on Austin for Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights.
There will be a half hour program about the
quilt and then 30 more minutes of call-in
talk show with another host.
Thank you for being with us this afternoon.
We hope you're enjoying the March on Austin for
Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights running through
Lobby Day on Sunday, on Monday, excuse me.
We are a gentle, angry people and we are
singing, singing for our lives.
It's a land of many colors.
We are a land of many colors and we are
singing, singing for our...
The last weekend in April will play host to
what may become to be known as the ninth wonder
of the world.