Welcome. Good evening. I love seeing all of you
here. Welcome to the second presentation
of our JFK 60 series that's presented by the
Osher Lifelong Learning Institute
at the University of North Texas and JFK expert
Dori Wiley.
This evening's presentation was originally
scheduled to be a three-person panel
made up of individuals who were present on the
day of the assassination.
We had Mike Howard, who was working as a Secret
Service agent, and we had Keith Shelton, who
was working for the Dallas Times-Herald, and he
was actually in JFK's motorcade.
Unfortunately, due to health reasons, neither
one of them will be able to join us this evening.
We have shifted from the three-person panel to
an intimate conversation between Dori Wiley and
Dr. Norman Gant, who also was present the day
of the assassination.
So it should be a very wonderful evening with
lots of fascinating information coming out.
So we will let Dori and Dr. Gant have a
conversation and then we will also have time
for questions
for Dr. Gant.
So keep your questions towards the end.
We will have a microphone and we'll come to you
with the questions that you may have.
So I would like to welcome, before I do that, I
want to acknowledge a special group of people
who have traveled near and far to be here this evening
in support of Keith Shelton,
who could not be here this evening.
This is a great group of individuals.
Keith Shelton was a professor at the University
of North Texas
for many years in the journalism department.
He was also the first editor of the North Texas Daily,
which is the newspaper of the University of
North Texas.
So these individuals that have traveled here
at this front table they came in support they
were there his students they worked
at the NT daily with him and they really look
up to him so he couldn't be here
but I want to say I hope that although you
couldn't connect with him at this
event that you're able while you're here and
didn't know you're able to connect
to him at a different time I know it will mean
a lot to him and help in his
recovery also attending is Dean Andrea Miller
who is the Dean of the Mayborn
school of journalism so Keith is a former
faculty member in that division and she's also here
in support of former students of that
department so without further ado I
would like to welcome to the stage Dr Norman
gant and Dory Wyland
Hello, how are you? Nice to meet you. Would you
call me Norman? Oh, I will. I'll be very difficult
Well, it's just we it's a little
Easier if we just refer to each other that way.
Well, that sounds good
Give me give me a second here and then we'll
get started fine. So
So glad to see you all again. How many of you
were at the first event? How many of you were
not at the first event?
Okay, great. We'll start all over
There's six of these, so this could get really
repetitive after a while.
How many of you were able to go to the Texas
Theater, Dealey Plaza, and the Sixth Floor?
Good, good, good.
Well, we're trying to, all of these are
different, and some of them will be a little
bit sequential.
This one's not sequential.
We talked about having a live panel, I told you
the first night when I first started doing
this some of my interest I'm kind of a
historian I thought about Lincoln you
know how many of you been to Forest Theater and
you ever sit there and
wonder wow if I had the chance to visit with a
doctor that worked on Lincoln or
some of the witnesses there you know how great
that would be and of course you
know nothing around but here we had this
incredible incredibly tragic event in
Dallas and some of them are still around now we
had two witnesses not make it
Stephanie called me and said well do you have
some more witnesses oh yeah I've
been using for last ten years and I called well
looked up several of them
they they weren't around anymore and then a few
of them were sick or got an
Alzheimer's the next thing you know another
looks like we're having a
one-on-one conversation you got it and you know
what we couldn't be luckier I
actually will prefer a one-on-one rather than a
panel because we can make it very
personal and we're going to turn you loose
tonight so it'll be terrific so the first now
while we're here to talk about the JFK
assassination and and uh the events that you
were involved in it what I don't want to
undermine or dismiss I want to make sure the
audience fully
appreciates is your full medical background and
history a contribution to to medicine here in the
Dallas Fort worth area and probably nationwide
as well so could you tell us a little bit about your
your background and your history well I'm a
graduate of University of North Texas
I went to school at North Texas for three years
got into medical school after three years
but came back took my two american history
courses and got my degree
I'd promised my mother I'd get a degree so I
did it and that was in biology do
what was that in biology biology minor in
chemistry it was pre-med and when
you'll love this story any of you remember Dane
Gafford see nobody's as
old as I am he was the Dean at North Texas and
they interviewed all the
candidates that were applying to medical school
and he said we don't let
three-year students to be recommended to
medical school so I had been warned and
I took out the catalog that I used when I
matriculated how about that and I said
so you lie and Dr. Carrico looked at him said
Gafford I think he's got you so I
got to go to medical school after three years
that's quite the accomplishment
so tell us about going to medical school and
your practice thereafter well I my
mother must have been frightened by a lab
technician or something but I fell
in love with research while I was a Parkland
resident in OB-GYN. And I, it
seemed like everything I did in the lab just
turned to gold. So I stayed to do
research and proving that no good deed ever
goes unpunished, I was then rapidly
promoted to chairman of the department. That's
where I worked for all those
years. I was at Parkland for 50 years. Wow,
terrific. Well, thank you for serving.
That's terrific. And OBGYN, that's probably why
I never ran into you.
Well, you know, somebody asked me why I did
OBGYN. I said I got tired of watching young men die.
here it was a happy outcome 50 more years for
the mother 70 more for the baby weren't many
people who could say they'd get a hundred and
twenty years of survival I could that's fantastic
I like that all right tell us a little bit
about November 1963 where were you working I
was a
senior medical student at Methodist Hospital in
Oak Cliff. In Oak Cliff. On a
senior rotation. Yes. And how long had you been
there? Well, since the beginning of
November. Oh, okay. It was a two-month rotation.
Two-month rotation. I was there
for November. I believe it was November and
December. So what were you doing that
morning? Scrubbed in surgery with a first-year
surgery resident named Paul
Molanoff and we were listening to music in the
background and we were running a
little late because we got started late and he
said Norman go drop out and get
us a late lunch so I went and called the
cafeteria to get a late lunch and came
back in and he was closing the skin okay so
you're gonna hear some surgical terms
tonight and I hope you're not too squeamish
because some of it may upset
you I'll just tell you now but anyway no
pictures no pictures but we heard that
that there had been a gunshot sound in Dealey
Plaza, and that possibly the president had
been wounded and was being taken to Parpa. So
he said, you hungry? I said, no. He said,
let's go turn on the TV. And we went into the
doctor's lounge and turned on the TV,
And the chief resident, we were there maybe ten
minutes, and the chief resident, Sonny
Cardwell, was paid stat, that means short
statum for Latin, see, liberal education does
help, stat, which means get your fanny to the
emergency room, and Sonny wasn't available.
He was off-campus making nurse rounds.
Is that what they call that?
That's what I'm calling it, okay.
Anyway, we went to the emergency room.
And you couldn't, in the trauma room there at Methodist,
you couldn't step for the people wall-to-wall
and police officers
stretched out dead on the table and this
officer said which one of you is Dr.
Cardwell and I swear to God Paul Molinoff who
was the resident said he's
tied up and I thought you know he might be
This guy had to live that down all these years.
But he said, well, who are you?
And he said, I'm Dr. Molanoff, and this is Dr. Gant.
Now, when you were a senior medical student,
they could call you doctor.
But I, to this day, answer to, hey, you.
So I just want you to know that.
So he said, okay, I want a bullet out of that stiff.
who said that this police this man who was in
charge of the room was he a policeman I know
he was in plain clothes and I think he I don't
know who he was to this day I don't I think he
was probably a U.S. Marshal he wasn't Secret
Service I don't believe but he was definitely
in charge
and Paul said sometimes you can't get a bullet
and he said well then you give me
a knife and I will get a bullet I mean he
wasn't taking any nose and I said
Paul we don't have a permit for an autopsy and
he did this and I was
looking at the butt of a 357 Magnum and I
didn't want to argue with him at all
And he said, uh, I want a bullet. And Paul
looked at the nurse and said, well, maybe...
Officer Tippett was shot three times here, and
we didn't roll him over. He had also been shot
in the back of the head. We didn't get to see that.
but he asked the nurse for her scissors.
She said, I'm not going to give you my
scissors, Dr. Mellanoff.
You never give them back.
Whereupon this guy with a cannon in his armpit said,
bitch, give him your scissors.
He got the scissors.
And she said, if you don't give them back,
you're a dead man.
And I never will forget he had on, it was warm
for November,
but he had on a heavy blue Dallas uniform, like
a Dallas uniform.
It was blue, kind of like this.
It wasn't the Khaki.
It was heavier.
So Paul started cutting that off and opened up
the shirt
and there was a flank hematoma.
he had a big bulge in his flank that was blue,
which was a big wad of blood.
And Molinov said, you know, we make him get a bullet.
And he looked at the nurse and said,
get me a cut-down tray.
And she said, wouldn't you give me my scissors back?
Evidently, this had been a problem for her in
the past.
Well, doctors were known for stealing nurses'
scissors, okay.
Nurses always needed scissors.
So anyway, she came back.
A cut-down tray, let me explain, is a little
shallow tray, like a little shallow pan that's
stainless steel.
And it's a scalpel and the blades, hemostats
and suture material.
And a cut down is when you do this to get
access to a vein.
You open up a big vein, like right here in your arm.
Everybody knows this vein right here is a
favorite cut down site.
The ankle, posterior tib, anterior tib are cut
down sites.
And you would get the blade and just, you know,
you'd sponge off if you had the time.
If you didn't have the time, you'd just make an
incision, lift up the vein, nick it, put in a
catheter to which you would run fluids.
And in trauma, you always had an upper and a
lower in case you weren't, unless there was a
wound, preventing blood from getting back to
the heart.
this way you got fluid to the heart
or you got blood to the heart
if you had to transfuse
it's just the step
and he cut down
and I just held the cut down tray
this is my sole contribution to history
I held the cut down tray
I didn't do the surgery
Paul Molanoff cut down
and a big wadoma came out
Well, I would say a double handful of clotted
blood and behind the clot was a button and
behind the button was the bullet.
The bullet had taken a button through in front
of it into the flank.
Things like that do happen.
this this bullet they hit the button my
understanding is very damaged the button
had a wedge out of it yeah but it was intact
minus a wedge but oh okay it had a wedge out of it
but it had taken it all the way through okay
and uh Paul took the button and said here Sir
here is
here's uh he took the button put the button
down took the bullet and said Sir here is the bullet
and the guy dropped it now this Marshall or
whatever he was whatever I think he
was a you I think he was a martyr Molinov I
didn't know at the time I do
now the chain of evidence is very important and
Molina put his foot over
the drain because the thing that the officer
was on was a table with pipes
four pipes coming down and an open drain and
Molina put his foot over the drain
said nobody moved and said everybody sees
that's the bullet he reached down
picked up the bullet put it in his hand and
said don't drop it and he said I'm
not going to haul your ass out of here that's
exactly what he said to Paul
Mullina I was never so glad to leave anywhere
in my life he had everyone
leave the room no he had us leave the two docks
but everyone else stayed I
don't know we got the hell out and we got off
mark the bullet in your presence
with any initials he didn't mark it with his
image I didn't see any do anything
thing other than take the bullet in his hand
which he squeezed and he said
haul your ass out of here to pull them all off
and boy we left yes sir and that
was it one bullet he didn't have you pull out
the other two we couldn't have
found the other two yeah we were just this just
happened to be fate that this
one yeah this thing's where you see in the
movie and they pull a bullet out and
they drop it in a pan and it goes clank that's
in the movies okay I only got to
do that once in my whole career at Parkland a
superficial bullet that I
actually asked the nurse to bring over a tray
so I could go click and she almost
kill me when she found out why I wanted the pan
you know I had no idea these
bullet removals were so entertaining for you
guys you had to find something I can
we back up a second here yeah so we're you've
left us hanging you leave the
room there are other people still in the room
so what happened after you found
out later we talked to those people I presume
yeah he he was taken to the
medical examiner's office I know that but I
don't know who took him I'm only
going to tell you about what I know and what I
witnessed and all I know is he
was taken to the medical examiner's what about
can you tell us secondhand talk to
to some of your friends that were in the room
and what they said? No.
You're not gonna say anything?
I just didn't hear anything after that. Yeah.
Because he was dead and the family was grieving.
I mean, here's a man who got in his uniform
and went to work in the morning and did a
traffic stop
and was killed at a traffic stop.
I did hear the woman who observed Officer Tippett
being shot. She heard the police car stop.
Officer Tippett stopped the car for a traffic
violation. And she looked outside and she
actually saw him being shot and called the
the police. And that's why the police got there
so quickly. And he abandoned his car
and went to the Texas Theater. Now this part I
know, because I talked to the police officer
who apprehended him in the Texas Theater.
Somebody saw him walk up to the theater, and
there wasn't anybody in the little, what are they?
Glass window.
Glass window. So he went straight in, and they
reported it. So the police knew that
But somebody walking had gone there.
So the police descended on the theater.
A couple of them came in the back way, and this
officer that I talked to sitting in the
emergency room at Parkland drinking coffee, you
know, ten years later, said, I walked
up and tapped this guy on the shoulder and he
whirled around with a pistol.
He said, I did what I was taught to do, to grab
the pistol like this so the hammer would hit
him here.
He said, I had three strikes where he was
snapped trying to kill me.
And then the other two guys smothered him down.
And that's how he was apprehended in the theater.
That part I know because the guy who lived it,
he told me this story in the emergency room.
yeah he's been very public about that story I
tell me this did you post well
tell let's go back up a little bit you leave
the operating room do what you
leave the operating room because he tells you
to get out where did you go
well we work on me wait let's get this straight
we weren't in an operating room
we were in the emergency room emergency room
yeah we went back upstairs and sat
down and turned on the tv and that's what you
did the rest of the day yeah yeah uh
when shortly after that Dr Cardwell came back
so we got him caught up did he have any rope
burns or
anything no comment I've already said too much
about Sonny Sonny was a good Stephanie we're
gonna have to add another program and invite
him on he sounds like he had a nice day too
but I do know what went on at parkland and if
you want me to go up here at this little diagram
sure that'd be great uh all of the people
involved at parkland including two of my
medical students
they're now gone. And there are only, I guess,
three of us left. I think Paul Mullinoff and
Ron Jones, who's chief of surgery at Baylor
University Medical Center. And we're the only
three still left from that day. But if you
will, I'd sketch-
Ken Sawyer is still around, isn't he? Ken
Sawyer is still around, but I don't know about
Salier. I've had him on a program before. He
was in there as well. Ken was my resident when
I later
rotated on his service. Did you know Don Curtis?
Who? Don Curtis. He was in there as well.
Well, the ones that I'm going to talk about are
the people I knew, and if this is a little
disjointed, please understand that I've got
their stories over the period of time.
Most of my source was Jim Carrico. Dr. Carrico
was his father. He was chairman of chemistry at
UT, at North Texas.
And Jim was ahead of me in medical school, and
we were in the same medical school fraternity.
And Jim was the surgery resident, he was the
second year resident, and this is the emergency
room outlined here.
Here is the driveway, and here is where the
limo pulled up with Kennedy in it.
the governor. And Carrico got a telephone call
in the emergency room in the
doctor's room right here. This is surgery's
doctor room. This is OB-GYN's
doctor room. This is the OB-GYN area. This is
surgery. This is medicine, psychiatry,
and x-ray. This is trauma room one and two.
That's trauma room three and four.
Carrico got the call here. He turned and
started through here. This was the triage. This
is where people signed in.
He looked over at the doctor sitting here, Bill
Midgett. Dr. Midgett practiced OB-GYN in Denton
for 25 years.
Some of you ladies may have met him.
Anyway, Jim Carrico said, Midget, come with me.
So Midget just got up.
He thought somebody was delivering.
And they came out here, and the gurneys were
lined up here.
And they picked up a gurney, went here, and out here.
And Midget said, I got out there.
the president was there with his head blown off
and the governor was shot and we loaded
the president on a gurney they then went up the
hall pulled in here into here and put the
president here in trauma room one and what did
midget do I asked me he said I got the hell out
of there. I got the hell out of there in a
hurry and went back to the OB-GYN area.
And in case somebody once asked me how I'd
avoided all this not being found out,
I kept my mouth shut and my head down. I was
like midget. I didn't say anything. I
was told by one of these professors, you've
seen, you medical students ought
to keep your mouth shut. And that's what we did.
Now, this is trauma room one. That's where Kennedy
was. And Carrico established an airway. That's
what he called it. I got an airway for the president.
He intubated him. Do you know what that means?
He looked down his throat, put a tube into his
trachea, his windpipe. And I assumed that he
did the tracheotomy. He did not. Malcolm Perry,
a senior surgery resident, Mack Perry, later a
faculty member at Parkland, Mack Perry did the
trach. They did the cut downs, arm, leg, and
they did the trach. And the professor of anesthesiology,
Pepper Jenkins. Dr. Jenkins was there with a
fellow and they were at the head
of the table and they weren't moving ever. Even
with the tracheotomy, they
weren't hearing air being in and out. And
sometimes when you do a tracheotomy, you
can get the pleura, that's the lining over the
lungs, and you can drop the
lungs it happens in the best surgeons in the
world it can happen to because the
pleura comes up higher on some people and lower
on others and if you get the
pleura and you drop the lungs you're not
ventilating so what they decided to do
was to put in chest tubes one here and one here
Ron Jones, the chief of surgery at Baylor, was
a senior resident.
Ron Jones put in a chest tube on the right, and
Charlie Baxter, and I'm not making this up.
Our chief of urology at Parkland was Paul Peters.
I'm not making it up.
And Paul Peters and Charlie Baxter put the
chest tube in over here.
Now, in the meantime, the governor's over here.
My classmate, Herman May, may he rest in peace,
saved the governor's life.
He saw the exit wound, got an adaptic, kind of
an oily, greasy dressing, put over the wound,
put a compression bandage on and a clean, like
gauze, and covered up the exit wound.
And then Red Duke, remember Dr. Red Duke on TV?
Well, Red Duke came in and put in chest tubes
with Herman May into the governor.
Now, the governor had an entry wound here, exit
wound here.
He was seated, so when he took the shot here
and it came out here, it nicked his wrist,
He broke his arm here and lodged in his thigh,
the slug.
And Red Duke and Herman May literally saved the
governor's life.
And I'm proud to say that the governor handed
me my diploma the following spring.
Oh, that's cool.
Walking across the stage.
That's awesome.
We were at SMU, we were too poor in those days
to have our own auditorium at Southwestern, we
do now.
But we used SMU's auditorium for our graduation.
And we had been told we would go this way
and instead we went this way.
You know why?
The governor's best side was this side.
And he had pancake makeup on
because he still was pale as a ghost and he
wouldn't turn loose in my hand and he
said you're from Wichita Falls yes do you know
Judge Allred I said his son
Sam Houston and I now Sam Houston got that name
because he was born in the Sam
Houston bedroom when his father James Lee
Allred was governor of state of
Texas. And James V. Allred served as a mentor
for LBJ and for Governor Conley.
So he wouldn't turn loose my hand and finally I
said, Governor, I've just got to
know if there's a diploma in this tube. But
anyway, all right, this is going to be
a little gruesome folks okay they finally
decided they weren't moving in
the air and they looked at each other and I
said you know he's dead and about
that time Kemp Clark who was about 6 6 he was
the chief of neurosurgery came in
the door said where was he sat and Carrico said
there was an exit wound in
his neck and the back of his head, but I don't
know if it's the entry or exit line. And Kemp
went over and picked up his head, picked up the
President's head. He had thick hair and
there he saw the skull missing, looking into
the ventricle and part of the cerebellum gone.
He was very dead.
And he walked over and he unplugged the respirator.
And Jim Carrico said, Kemp, that's the
President of the United States.
And Kemp said he was the President.
Now the next part is kind of tear jerky and I still.
One of the men also in here was Bob McClellan.
He was the highest up in the surgery department
that day. The chair of surgery was in Galveston
that day and wasn't at Parkland. And Bob McClellan
was when he heard the chair being paid stat for
the emergency room, went down there. And
Bob was at the head of the gurney where the
president was, and the pump, the respirator
was right here, and Bob was standing here.
The president's head's this way and his feet
are this way towards the door.
And Mrs. Kennedy had asked them not to declare
him dead until the priest gave last rites,
which the priest did.
And everybody, after they unplugged the
respirator, they started filing out.
And Bob was the last one there, and he had to
move the gurney.
And Mrs. Kennedy came in, took his ring off,
and put it over her finger, leaned over and
kissed the dorsum of his foot, it was probably
the only place that didn't have blood, and
walked out the door.
So that's what went down there.
Sunday or Saturday morning, what happened
downtown? My classmate, Fred Beberdorf, was the
jail doctor that night, working at the jail.
a choice job for a senior medical student. You
got paid to be the jail doctor. They didn't
have a real doctor. They had a senior medical
student. And he was just leaving when he saw
Oswald get shot. And he did the CPR on Oswald
that kept him alive
till he got to Parkland Hospital.
He was in the ambulance?
Yeah, he rode in the ambulance
and doing CPR.
Now, if you're going to kill somebody,
you don't want to shoot them anterior or posterior.
You want to shoot them transverse.
You do this
because I know
what the chief of surgery found.
Got the spleen,
Got the vena cava, avulsed the superior
mesenteric artery off the aorta, clipped the gallbladder
and the liver, and went out the side.
That was a fatal wound, and being a trauma
surgeon like our chief of surgery was, he
had the bleeding controlled and had a heartbeat
when he arrested and died on the table, and
couldn't be resuscitated other than that that's
what I know that's like the old
saying other than that miss Lincoln how was the
play you know appreciate you
sharing that I've had the privilege to
interview quite a few of the doctors
over the years and it's one thing for some of
us to talk about it and whatever
it is but it's a whole other thing when people
are present because they still
everyone I've got emotional they get emotional
and it just it just means a
whole lot more so we appreciate you being here
today and sharing that and I
think you know we mentioned this before you
know everyone in here if you're
around then but everyone here knows what they
were doing that day and that's
still an emotional moment for you personally as
well too you know just like 9-11 or anything else
so uh anyway that's terrific I do have one
little follow-up okay I didn't tell anybody
I was involved fred Bieberdorf and herman may
the two medical students
may Herman may was the one that put the
dressing on and Fred did the CPR on Oswald
We were advised by Charlie Baxter, professor of
surgery, to keep her mouth shut and her head
down, and that's what we did.
I didn't tell anybody. I didn't even tell Jim
Carrico. And I got a call.
Did you tell your wife?
I did. I did tell my wife and threatened her
with all kinds of things.
I didn't want anybody to know and because
Charlie Baxter I like I love
Charlie Charlie I later delivered some of his
grandchildren I did surgery on
his wife and Charlie and I were compadres we
just kind of bonded he was
the burn doctor at Parkland and I rotated on
his service and with Red Duke
three red Duke three times why I asked where
had that one day how did I get
stuck with you three times he said I asked for
you well he's not shy he's
married person no well reds dead yeah Jimmy
Redd is yeah his name was James
Duke but we called him red any anyway where was
I lost my chain oh yeah so I
got a call one day. I was now still a professor
at Parkland, but I was the
executive director of the American Board of
OB-GYN. We're the people that do the
exams. They had to get past me to say they were
board-certified, and I was a
sweetheart, okay? But I ran these exams, and I
moved the office to
Dallas when I took over and I got a call from
Carrico and Carrico said what the
Hell do you do had to do with the
Kennedy assassination I know you weren't at
Parkland I said no I said why do you
know I'm involved school book depository had
gotten my name and they wanted to
interview me they have interviewed me I said no
the first time and refused to be interviewed when
was that when they first asked you that must
have been 15 years ago yeah and uh I just was keeping
my head down yeah and Carrico said Norman they
are reputable people they're historians and they
won't and so they came out with a little camera
and recorder and if you want to see this interview
it's at the school book depository yes they
have a oral history at the sixth floor museum
and uh you can go down there and they have
hundreds and hundreds of witnesses like this
and they've done a really good job of recording
history and I've actually sent some people down
there as well and sending a few of our people
that are doing this series down
there as well so tell me tell me this you did
you kept your head down you know
and I would say most of the doctors did most of
them didn't really talk kind of
started in the 90s with the assassinations
records review board when
they did so much autopsy study they started
interviewing some of them Dr.
Perry and and whatnot you still didn't talk at
that time I all I did was hold a
pan no as a researcher you've already given me
a lot of information well
there's somebody in the room that we don't know
who it was and he was
directing things who was that guy who was what
who was that guy in the room directing things
in that room yeah that day in your room
I don't know who he was do you no but I'll
start digging boy I tell you he was not in a
in a mood to be fooled with yeah he didn't seem
like somebody you want to go on a world he was
not being cuddly and sweet let me tell you I
and uh when he showed me that that's the only permit
you need I just thought boy you've already
popped off once too often well uh and you never
got with
anybody in that room that was in there with you
that day and talked about that day no I tried to
Now, I did call Paul Mullinoff before I gave
the interview for the school book depository.
I called up Methodist to find out where he went
into practice, and the acting director
of evaluations was a member of the OB-GYN
department, our faculty member.
And he said, well, Paul is a radiologist in
Cleveland, I think it was Cleveland.
So he gave me his number, and I was able to
find Paul.
And I tried to contact Paul to get him to come
here tonight.
I don't know if he's still alive.
I know he's retired, but I couldn't find him.
I tried, but...
You know, I interviewed one doctor that had
been in trauma room one with the president,
And his story basically was after he was
interviewed, if you will, by the Warren
Commission and threatened and so frightened to
talk about it that he moved away from Dallas.
He never came back and he never talked about it
again until he came to one of my conferences
about five years ago and he had a prepared speech.
And this was who? Don Curtis. I just didn't
know him.
But he never talked about it either, so
you know, there were several of you guys that
didn't, so we appreciate you
speaking about it. The reason I'm doing this
is my cover was blown when I did
the interview for the School Book Department.
Carrico was the one who
talked me into doing that. So if he hadn't done
that, you still wouldn't be talking about it?
Does this make you uncomfortable right now?
No, no.
You don't think that marshal is going to come
in, do you?
No, it's almost 60 years, for God's sakes.
That's history.
There are, as near as I can tell, three of us left,
and every year my Rolodex gets thinner.
So, I don't have much to protect anymore, you
know. There are no secrets left. All the things
everybody and a lot of people who claimed to be
there weren't. Yeah.
And that always troubled me, deeply troubled me.
And I will tell you though, one more time I was
sure glad to get out of that trauma room.
That guy was serious, whoever he was. And I'm
certain he wasn't Secret Service because he had
to have been a U.S. Marshal.
Because I don't think he belonged to anything
to do with the Dallas Police.
Yeah, it sounded like a Marshal or an FBI.
That's a possibility. I just assumed he was a U.S
. Marshal.
Questions? And we need microphones. Come on up,
pick somebody. There's one right here and
there's one back there. Hands high. They're
looking for you. There we go.
It's coming your way.
Doctor, Thank you . for being loyal,
conscientious, and focused on the truth. For
focusing on the facts.
So I have a two-part question, both directed at
you, Dory, and Doctor. They're both about the bullets.
So I want to start with the bullet you saw
extracted from the officer.
The first question I have tied to that is, this
man you've been referring to, you don't
understand who he is, maybe U.S. Marshal, maybe FBI.
At that moment, did you have any thought that
this officer was possibly shot by what we think
is now Oswald,
and therefore this officer was tied possibly to
the assassination of President Kennedy?
We had no idea he had anything to do with the
assassination, much less.
We just knew when we went in there, there was a
police officer dead.
That's what I thought.
And that's all we knew.
Your mind can do a thousand things.
But what we actually knew was we had a dead
officer and this authority figure wanting a bullet.
So you never at that moment thought this could
be tied to President Kennedy? No.
When did you find out?
Later that day?
The next day? No.
I found out about it like everybody else.
When the guy was arrested.
I also was arrested for watching the television
yeah that's what I thought
and I left that night to go interview and
Little Rock Arkansas for an
internship thank God I didn't go to little or
small stone I didn't go to
small stone but I went for it and I I was we
were in the car listen to the
radio there were two it was a two-seat Roadster
and I was in the jump seat in
the back like this all the way to Little Rock
but we listened to the radio and
that's when we I began to put some of it
together that's what I thought so the
second part of that first question is when he
dropped the bullet that your
peer doctor gave to him what made him drop it I
don't know it's odd that he would drop it after
he was so insistent to get the bullet he just
didn't close his hand or he turned it over I just
saw it drop and there wasn't any doubt Molina
put it in his hand and he dropped it you think
he dropped it intentionally no but your doctor
did the right thing I just think he was protected
probably evidence I just think he was clumsy
and you know I saw it fall I
didn't see it come out of his hand but I saw it
on the way down hit the floor and
roll towards the drain and Mullen I'll put his
foot over the drain thank you
which I thought was fast thinking my other
question concerns the second
bullet you have been very unwilling to share
things you don't know about but I
I would appreciate your opinion, and Dori, I'll
ask you the same question.
We hear about the magic bullet theory that hit
President Kennedy
and how possibly he could not have traveled the
route he traveled.
I would appreciate your opinion on the magic
bullet theory.
I can't even give an opinion.
As we used to say in the military, that's above
my pay grade.
You didn't come to the first night, did you?
we covered it but I'll tell you what if you
come to the next one I've got a guy
doing for an hour and a half all ballistics all
of that stuff so we'll
cover that then we've got one in the back hi I
don't have a question I just
wanted to clarify Ken Salyer was my medical
partner and Ken died in 2020
wait I didn't catch that we're both wearing
hearing aids Ken Ken Salyer was
my medical partner oh okay kid died in 2020 oh
he did pass away well you know I
kept trying to call him on a cell and I kept
getting somebody to keep hanging up
on me and I thought well he's mad or doesn't
want to talk to me anymore or
what so thank you for telling me that great guy
you know he got last time I
interviewed him was at the Texas Theatre we had
an event there I don't know did
you come to that yeah and I don't know if you
didn't remember me doing that but
he got very emotional talking about it and I'm
sure he did you know with you
and and what a great guy and another guy with a
with a change the world resume in
the medical field I gotta tell you about Kim he
was mean as Hell he was nice to
me you were not his intern I was well I always
thought that was kind of like
fraternities and pledges they kind of hate you
guys when you know Kim was a
super Ken was a super surgeon absolutely
exquisite surgeon and even more than
that he was a good doctor he took care of his
patients and he worked me as
hard as he could to make sure his patients got
good care well appreciate
your you're here today and telling us that
another question thank you my
question is why do you think they asked you not
to say anything why do you think
they asked you not to say anything to protect
to protect us from what we
protect you from what and if you want to really
get people steamed up just tell
the public that there were medical students
taking care of the president or
the governor that just wouldn't have gone down
too well in those days yeah
they just grabbed who they had Don Curtis was
gone to dental school yeah
you know it just did Charlie Baxter I love him
and Charlie's gone too I loved
him but that's the best advice I ever got
keeping my mouth shut my head down and just
staying out
of the fray and that's what it is you're you
are familiar with all of this the theories and
I don't have a single theory because I it's
over my pay grade that's well there's two
theories on
that one you know stay out of the limelight or
otherwise you're going to be peppered by press
from now on and also it's probably not classy
and it's not respectful of the family and
it's not professional etc then the other one is
uh if you're a conspiracy person
uh you don't need to talk or you know you
should get rubbed out well let me tell you
what it's like to have been identified Jim
Carrico was identified word newspaper everything
Every November 22nd, his phone would ring off
the wall.
It was somebody somewhere in the world calling,
wanting to talk to him.
He never had a moment's peace.
Did King get calls all the time? Yes.
All the time, McClellan, Perry, all of them. There's-
The Secret Service, several weeks in advance of
the President visiting a location, does all of
their pre-visit stuff and you would think they
would have worked with Parkland to say this is
the location that if anything happens we are
bringing the President.
You would have thought Parkland would have had
their best people there that day in case.
So why is it that students were the ones who
did all of this?
Well, the chairman of the department had a
long-standing commitment to be in Galveston.
But he left unbelievably competent people.
Bob McClellan was probably the very brightest
surgeon I ever met in my life.
He's skilled beyond belief.
Charlie Baxter was two years as a medicine
resident before he became a surgeon.
He had the top surgical faculty in the United States.
He didn't leave it uncovered. That place was
covered with competent people.
Pepper Jenkins was the chairman of Anesthesia.
He was also my father-in-law's classmate from
Galveston, class of 1940.
So the chief of anesthesia, the associate chief
of surgery were still there.
Well, Parkland's been known for its trauma
skills forever.
Forever. The world isn't round. It's sloped.
And at the bottom of that slope is the Parkland
emergency room. Trust me.
And it can handle anything that comes its way.
Got it.
Thank you for your insights and and sharing
with us. It's horrifically
appreciated and and insightful. I used to teach
as a faculty member at a university
in Pennsylvania and one of our common standard
operating procedures now is
after a traumatic event is to have a debrief.
While you had direction from the
chair to keep your head low and quiet. Did you
have a full-fledged ethical
board's debrief for any of those people that
were involved in the emergency room
for those events? Oh a debriefing. Did you have
a debriefing or interview from
police, a medical board, Warren Commission?
Nobody. Paul Mullinoff, the resident who
took the bullet out of Officer Tippett, he
testified at the Warren
Commission. No, we just hid and they just
forgot about us as conveniently and as
fast as they could. I'm, I can't begin to tell
you, I don't know what the public
would have thought to hear there were medical
students taking care of the
governor and the president. I just at the time
it was just the best for everybody
but especially good for us not to be involved.
I can you imagine taking me as
a senior medical student and I joke and I laugh
and I try to get you not too
serious I'll try to keep it a little bit light
but that was pretty heavy stuff
going down that day. All kidding aside, it was
damn heavy. Did you ever have any
nightmares or dreams about it? No, but I still
have dreams about it. Yeah. And the
strangest, I won't tell you about the dreams,
but yeah, I still can
occasionally have a dream about it folks up
that was a tough day tough day
questions anymore oh we got another one
somewhere there we go
so you mentioned that Parkland was a trauma
hospital and it had been for a
long time so why wouldn't they have had
multiple ER physicians on duty that they
didn't have to use all these students it was a
different time that's a great
question and the reason they didn't have
full-time trauma professors in the
emergency room we used to say how did you learn
to do a cut down I saw one did
one and taught one we were pretty well on our
own but I thought God was a
second-year surgery resident and it was monkey
see monkey do you know when we
We got to see our professor on Saturday morning
at the, you did what conference?
On Saturday morning, we would present the cases
from the previous week.
That's when we saw our professors.
We didn't have a professor on every corner.
There were five professors in surgery and five
in OB.
had about 10. It was not a professor on every
corner and it was a hospital run by the residents
and that was accepted standard of the time.
That's not what you could do today. Yeah we're
all getting
a little older and needing more medical care.
Can you make us feel a little bit better about how
it's done today. Yes, I will. I can't go to the
emergency room at Parkland that I
don't have an emergency room professor coming
in checking up on me. They have
faculty in the emergency room at Parkland and
the University Hospital. They
They have, you can't step for faculty nowadays.
And part of it has to do with the litigation,
the liability.
We live in a litiginous society.
And no matter what you do in medicine, people
still are rude enough to die on you.
And that has, it's only in this country that we
think death is an option.
And whenever there's a death, there's a lawyer.
Thank you very much for being here.
It's so interesting.
I mean, I was in the third grade when President
Kennedy was shot.
And I just wondered about the president having
less rights.
Was there a priest there? I mean, did it take
time? You know, it just seems like nowadays we
have a hard time.
I don't know if there was an actual-I wasn't
there, as I told you. I just know that he
was-Jacqueline Kennedy asked that he receive
last rites.
I don't know if it was the hospital chaplain-
There's actually a little gap.
They were wanting to say, well, he's dead at
this time,
and they said, well, wait, let's give him last
rites first.
But chaplains, a rabbi can give last rites.
It doesn't have to be a Catholic priest,
but I'm sure you'd have preferred this being Catholic.
But let me tell you, I saw some rabbis do last rites.
and they're they're interchangeable for the
last rights if they just say the right words
good question thank you again thank you all uh
dory last time afterwards I asked you a question
on why Dallas why did it have to be Dallas
where it was chosen and you mentioned that
Dallas was
really the third choice would any of the
medical facilities why was Dallas chosen for president
Kennedy to come to or if there was a conspiracy
why was it that I know pardon me he was in trouble
politically yeah and this was 63 and he was
facing a re-election and he wasn't too popular
in Texas
and he came and met with the governor to shore
up his chances of being re carry in Texas next year
it was purely political and he remember he
spent the night in fort worth where he gave a lecture
where he whatever he did at fort worth then
they flew from fort worth for God's sakes
to Love Field, but he had Conley to try to
shore up his chances of re-carrying Texas the
following November. Right.
You said you were a senior medical student? Yes.
How old were you in November of 63?
I was 24.
24 thank you two more down here wait wait wait
no we'll never hear it no no
I'm sorry I just lied to you I was 23 I wasn't
until 24 until the following
February it was one of the biggest stories in
American history are you glad
you were there you were part of it are you glad
am I glad are you glad you were part of this story
or is it a burden I don't think I'm glad that I
I participated in it I just did what I was
trying to do as as I tried to explain it was a
different time and our hospitals and especially
the charity hospitals were run by residents and
students. And they were supervised at a
distance by faculty. But I can never tell you how
grateful I am to have been able to go to North
Texas, or North Texas State at the time, and to
have been a student at UT Southwestern Medical
school. I was absolutely blessed with this
education. And you know what I love about
North Texas? My tuition the 1st semester?
Thirty-nine dollars.
tuition for four years at UT Southwestern $300
a year a year and I
was poor how poor were you I was so poor we
couldn't afford a father we had to
barry the next door neighbor that's our story
well that was set up I love that question because
I've interviewed a lot of witnesses and um
there are some that are glad they participated
and for
some it's a burden and uh that's probably a
good question to ask all of them go ahead my question
is similar so echoing the thanks for speaking
up tonight in the last 15 years has there been any
downside has there been any uh downside to
telling your story in the last 15 years or is
there any
consequences or downside people pestering you
I've only told this story now for the third
time in
public uh the first time was the school book
depository that's there six floor museum yeah
the sixth floor. The second time was with Bob
McClellan in 19, in 2014. And the reason I
remember that so vividly,
shortly after this I got my chest cracked for a
cabbage coronary artery bypass. But I've only
told this story, this is the third time.
So, I haven't had a lot of practice at telling
it, but I did call to make sure that I hadn't
embellished it.
I called Paul Mullinoff to tell him that I was
going to talk to the School Book Depository,
and that I'd been assured by CARICO that they
were historians, and above board, they were
professional historians.
and I wanted to tell him the story and I told
it to him on the phone just like I told you tonight
and he said you nailed it he said you haven't
added anything I don't think you left anything
out so that's how many times I've told it this
is the third time you know I'm on the uh library
board the University of North Texas and they
have this Texas portal history some of them
right here
and this video is going to go on to that portal
and it's used worldwide and they
have some amazing resources at the library in
fact we have a handout or a
sheet or somewhere maybe it's out front I have
it on my PowerPoint I'm not sure
it shows up in all the next presentations so
that you know where to
go for these resources but the library's done a
really good job supporting
in history and things related to the JFK assassination.
They've got some nice collections there
and I love going to board meetings
because I can go early and look at some of the stuff.
I've recalculated, I was 24.
I've got my shoes on, I couldn't use my toes.
Was that minor in chemistry or math? Chemistry.
More questions?
got time for maybe one or two more. Somewhere.
Stick your hand up higher. Nope. Right here.
We've got one. Where's our... Go, Stephanie, go.
I saw on the
Ali site
some videos we could watch
for tonight
for the people that could not be here
and if I watched
the right one it was a secret
service agent
and he totally believed in the
magic bullet
Am I correct on that, or do you know what, if
he had been here tonight, we would have heard?
So are you talking about the recent news of
Paul Landis?
No, what's the question again, or Stephanie or
somebody help me out?
Well, it was a Secret Service man, and I'm
sorry, I can't think of his name right now.
Mike Howard.
Oh, that was coming tonight.
What did Mike Howard think of the bullet theory?
well you know he was in Fort Worth at the time
but I'm sure he had an opinion
and you'd have to ask him well I'm pretty sure
that Mike I'm pretty sure
that Mike was not thought that Oswald was a
long shooter yes he did and for
him to the video I saw you're asking you're
asking me what well since we
didn't hear that tonight I just wanted to know
how you would have handled the
situation I've interviewed a lot of people that
believe that Oswald acted
alone and I usually don't get overly
confrontational with them you know it
doesn't you know people believe what they're
gonna believe you know so I can
argue both sides you know and so when the
presentations I'll show you I'll
show you some things so then you draw your own
conclusion you know some things
to think about I would tell you this do your
own homework you know some people
believe something because someone told them
some people do believe something
because they feel it and some people do believe
something because they research
it and some bullet people research the right
things and some people receive
research the wrong thing it's not easy more are
we done so I
So I would like to give our sincere thanks for
Dr. Norman Gantz.
Thank you so much. That was wonderful.
Thank you. You hang tough.
I just had to get some people to laugh because
some of these things I was telling were horrible.
We feel very honored that the JFK series is the
third audience to hear your story.
We appreciate you, and of course, Gary Wiley,
we appreciate you as well.
Thank you.
So let me kind of wrap up here.
The next one that we have is on the 10th, okay,
and that is Tuesday.
That will be Robert Tannenbaum, and he was the
number two guy,
deputy counsel for the House Select Committee
of Assassinations.
And I think, if I remember correctly, he had
the highest rated conviction rate as New York
District Attorney's Office in the trials he did.
He also writes novels or novels of books about
some of those trials that he used to do.
He's going to speak and he wants two hours. He
says he's got a lot to say.
Some of the things that Bob will talk about, he
still, he says some of the stuff he's not
spoken in public about from the House Select
Committee of Assassinations.
And as a reminder, that was done in the late 70s.
The House Select Committee of Assassinations
investigated the assassinations of Martin
Luther King, Robert Kennedy, and JFK.
And so it will be very interesting to hear from him.
did I miss oh yeah October 3rd that's the next
one I'm sorry so we have some right coming I mean
back to back 10 10 3 uh Brian Edwards and he's
going to talk about ballistics and his thoughts
about if there were a conspiracy here's the
evidence for it in ballistics wise here's the
evidence for multiple gunshots here's the
evidence and how he thinks it happened and it's an
interesting case uh from him uh on the that's
on the third and then we don't have one until the
24th and that's Judith Baker who was Lee Harvey
oswald's girlfriend in New Orleans and what we're
going to do to her is uh we're going to ask her
questions like in a trial format we're going to
swear her in and then we're going to
cross-examine her with a with a real trial
attorney then on the
second uh of November I'm gonna do uh the trial
you've never heard about which is uh howard hunt
If you remember him from Watergate days, he was
a CIA agent, in a lawsuit against Liberty Spotlight,
which was a newspaper tabloid in the late 70s
that had accused him of being in Dallas on
November 22, 1963.
and this this is the only trial where we
actually got two former CIA directors
and multiple CIA agents and others on the stand
and we have depositions we
have trial testimony and cross-examination and
for those of you
that think a court system is a good good way to
kind of search for the truth this
is an interesting trial how many of you ever
heard of this trial so it uh I'm really excited
this is the first time I've done that
presentation um and I'm really excited about
giving that I
think you'll find it very interesting and then
on the 10th excuse me yes the 10th Friday the 10th
uh university of North Texas has their law
school down where the old municipal Dallas police
headquarters were they got a bunch of money to
go there and to do that they had to preserve
where Oswald was shot where Ruby was jailed and
whatnot and they made a wonderful little museum
there and you'll get to tour that the problem
is it's not open to the public because it's
a working law school so you kind of have to go
as a group is that filled up yet
what she said you still okay because because it
doesn't hold that many we can only do what 80 or
something yeah okay well keep me informed I've
got a bunch of people they would like to go if
you guys don't fill it up but you can't just go
down there on your own so I you you should go
that and then I'll be speaking at that time and
I can answer or attempt to
answer any and all questions about whatever you
want to ask us is it you
can only go in small groups through the tour
any questions on the program if not
we'll call it an evening thanks for coming out