[Lesley Williams Brunet] Well, if the researchers sorted out. We're on that.
You were writing him about,
it was part of the justification for setting
up the center and
you were talking about the banding and how
it was especially useful
in like leukemia and things like that.
But there were a lot of cancers that
they haven't been analyzed fully by banding and
you still need to work on that. (FOREIGN)
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I'm the veganist. Was that
talking about the cell center is to preserve the cells?
[Lesley Williams Brunet] To preserve the cells.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] From the patient's? (crosstalk)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Right. Well, and just have
a whole center to be looking at.
I'm going to ask you more about this. Let's see.
The cytogenic unit, a cell center
unit to contain cell cultural facilities
, cell bank. (crosstalk)
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I think that was the idea that
we will preserve cells from, say,
cancer patients, a certain cancer,
and this is called the cell bank.
Now, I have an enormous cell bank here.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Is this the living zoo?
That's something else. (crosstalk) (laughing).
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] It's including the zoo.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Okay. The zoo is (inaudible) (crosstalk).
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I think we have largest collection
of cells from all world monkeys,
all world primates,
from African monkeys, Asiatic monkeys,
naturally chimpanzees, gorillas, and all those.
We have the largest collection.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] When was this cell bank started?
I'm saying the letters about it.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Quite a long time,
but there was improvement.
I thought I wanted to have them preserved, encode,
and then we put the cells in
a little MPO but at the beginning,
we didn't have the liquid nitrogen
and we had to use dry ice.
But dry ice can keep the temperature.
Lesley Williams [Brunet] Too cold?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Not too cold. Not cold enough.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Oh, not cold enough.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] A lot of times they say one time
we ruined a lot
of preserved cultures because of a hurricane.
During the hurricane, the dry ice company could not come
to add the dry ice so the temperature warmed up.
So we lost a lot of cells but now,
since then we use the liquid nitrogen and
the tank is full and also is
set with alarm in case the can goes out,
the nitrogen company will come to add liquid nitrogen.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I think from all over the world write you for cells.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Pardon.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] People from all over the world contact
you for cells or used to.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] No, we have the rule now.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] You can't get them.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] You have a lot of rigmarole to do because of money.
In other words, if I gave my frozen cells to somebody,
this was a recent rule and this
somebody develop something patentable,
and then the institute
own the share of that because I gave to
them and so it's a lot harder now to give.
Previously, I gave it to anybody who wants
it and somebody will give to me too.
Someone in NIH once gave me a batch of cells belonging
to some mice near the Himalaya Mountains.
So we used to exchange for them.
But now, it's money, money talks.
There are a lot more restrictions.
For science, we're willing to give to anybody.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Let's see, we got off track somehow.
I'm confused about the evolution
of the cytogenetics center
and how your laboratory has developed and changed
names and that's all I think
other people studying Anderson would
be a little confused too.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Since Dr. Haas established my group as a section of
cell biology that lasted until early in 1980s,
and then it became the department of cell biology.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Okay, so change from a section to a department.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] To a department.
The department chairman,
I was, had a lot more power than the section chief,
and I had more budget from
the institute even though I would apply for grants.
That time the grants were much easier to get.
I was very rich.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] We're talking about the 80s or all up until the 80s?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Up to 80s. That time grants,
no big problem to get.
From in the 1950s to 80s,
I became famous, so I got a lot of help.
I was a member of the NIH study section.
I want to tell you this story is very interesting.
The study section meets two or three times a year.
Not necessarily in Bethesda, but other towns.
Sometime we went to Colorado,
some scenic place to be.
(noise) Then there's a chairman of that study section.
Now, the chairman will usually meet three days,
the chairman will have all the members to have dinner
together for once and
then he pays from the budget to all that.
So it was very lively dinner.
In NIH, different institute will
have representatives to sit
in there in case somebody asked questions.
Then there was a gentleman from I forgot
which institute old men
and we all invite them to eat too.
This old gentleman,
his favorite subject was to talk
about his fishing trips and
hunting trips and nobody wants to listen to him.
So I felt very sorry for him,
so I sat by his side and talked to him.
He thought I was a good friend that because
I was nice to him. That paid off.
That time, Bill Brinkley was with
me but he was a postdoc.
He could not apply for a grant and I apply for a grant.
That time, it was a quarter of million dollars.
It was a big sum at the time.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] It's like the late 60s.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah, 60s.
Naturally,
we all knew a lot of things about NIH and I was
told cell biology had a lot more money than genetics.
So I wrote my application towards
the cell biology area and this old gentleman called me.
He said, T.C you can't get that,
this grant because cell biology
is full and your application especially so large,
they won't approve it.
So I said, "What can I do?"
He said genetics has money.
I was told genetics has
less money that's why I wrote towards the cell.
He said, can you write
a little bit towards the genetics?
I said of course I can.
He said, but the time is short, that was Tuesday.
He said, "You better get that."
Make up the addition towards genetics tomorrow.
You finish that.
That time we didn't have a computer or anything.
I had three secretaries.
I got everybody involved, especially Bill Brinkley.
I will write down
page by page and this first secretary will type.
Then everybody else will read it, change it.
It got second secretary type.
Then I would review it again,
the third secretary type.
Set what he worked for whole day.
I finally finished that about 4:00 o'clock.
This gentleman told me,
you must send this by
special delivery and don't send it to NIH,
send to my home.
He said in NIH,
your letter will come in about three days later,
the whole thing is over, isn't that nice?
[Lesley Williams Brunet] So he got personal attention.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah. I sent to his home.
He said, I'll call you when I receive it here.
The next day, he called me, he said,
I got your application theory model form.
I'll give my child.
That Friday was the day
to day will determine it.
Because I wasn't nice to him.
He called me again, he said,
"You got what you want," quote a million dollars.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] What was the grand forward? Do you remember?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] For electron microscope with
Bill Greens and all that thing.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Before that you didn't have electron microscope
or there was one that you had a share?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah, that's right. That one
included one electron microscope,
our own without sharing.
Sometimes you're paid the bonus when you strike.
Unknowingly trying to be nice to
people, you got a benefit.
Lesley Williams [Brunet] Probably good.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Why was Bill Brinkley in physics?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Pardon.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Why was he in physics?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Well, I didn't have a space for her.
The electron microscope was theirs too.
Billy needs to use it.
The guy who had this microscope,
I don't know what his name is.
Art Co, Arthur Cole and he was a physicist.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I'm sorry, what was his last name.
T.C (Tao-Chiuh) [Hsu] Cole, C-O-L-E.
This was a Japanese made.
He is so good that he would tell Bill Brinkley,
this is not good,
this place not good.
The lens is bad at all.
You tell them all
apart and put them back together next week.
Sure enough, it will be increased in quality.
Then he found somebody else is bad.
Every week he took it apart.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Didn't that limit its use?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Brinkley will do is he'll come in
Saturday and Sunday after
article finished reassembling it,
he wll use those two days
because he knew next he's going to tell them apart.
We did that way.
During that time, electron microscope work or
fine structure work, just beginning.
People do the sections of tissues, cells from tissues.
Never used cell culture,
we could do cell culture.
We couldn't do a lot of experiments.
The weekly discussion as
to what experiment we should do the next one.
Because of this, Billy became very famous.
I watched on his side how he became famous too.
After I became the president of cell biology.
Oh yeah, by almost unknown.
He was asked by that time the president,
we use one year,
the President is supposed to organize a symposium.
He asked Bill Brinkley to organize symposium.
Practically nobody.
He came from our state.
His professor was a jerk.
He abused Bill Brinkley and all this.
Bill wants to come to start all over again.
I said No, you have one more year,
get your degree, PhD degree,
then come to me as a postdoc.
When that year the president
asked Bill Brinkley practically no,
nobody to organize a symposium,
this was a big honor and was in the big theater.
I found his old professor leaning against the wall.
So I said, how do you feel
your a former graduate student now become a big shot?
[Lesley Williams Brunet] What did he say?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] He said, "Well, that's good" (laughing) He's nobody.
Nobody paying attention to him.
He'd no contributions. (noise)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Did Anderson or Dr.
Clark make any attempt to try and keep Bill Brinkley?
Why did he leave for UTMB?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] This way, I requested
to promote from post-doc
to assistant professor to associate professor.
But he got an offer from UTMB,
a full professor with all the money,
funds he needed and all those.
Then the chairman, that time was a lady.
Very dear friend of mine.
Unfortunately, she died
of breast cancer a few years later.
He went to two UTMB,
and a few years later because of
the illness and they just disbanded.
He went to University of Alabama at Birmingham.
Everywhere he went, he sets history.
This is the man.
My proudest possession,
but during the time,
I was chairman of the laboratory,
had visitors just all over the world.
I had a camp.
He said from 33 different countries,
people came from such unknown place,
like insignificant country lagger,
University of Kuwait, from New Zealand, from Russia.
(noise) All of those.
I welcome all of them.
Lesley Williams [Brunet] I'm sorry.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I said, I welcome all of them.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Yes. I saw that in the correspondence.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Many times, they come to learn
from me and they gave me something back.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Can you think of an example?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] For example, I got
a chicken expert on portraits department, Cornell.
He told me how you can make experiments with
chick embryos by incubating whatever stage you want it.
I didn't know the stage.
Seven days the development of these nine days from,
he said you drill a little hole on the air packed area.
You can put drug in
there right on top of the embryo and you seal it.
Then one day, two day,
three day later you can study the cell,
the damaged, the mutations on the chick embryo.
I learned something back.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Mostly.
We were talking about the evolution of
cell biology and how
it went from a section to a department.
T.C (Tao-Chiuh) [Hsu] Yeah. (noise)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Then of course this data is a department.
Because what I was confused about,
(noise) Page 72,
you propose reorganizing cell biology
into four interrelated units housed together,
cytogenetics unit, electron microscopy unit,
cell central unit with a cell cultures and the cell bank.
Did that all occur?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] They come one at a time.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Because it seem like you wrote a lot of letters.
She was still writing about the 79,
you're writing about establishing
a tumor cytogenetic unit.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I forgot all those (laughing) (crosstalk).
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I guess I'm trying to see how the. (crosstalk)
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Dr. Lamido or somebody else?
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Dr. Lamido. Let's see.
In other words, cytogenetic analysis
should be a guide for chemotherapy.
You are pushing more cytogenetics
for identifying pictures of tumors. (crosstalk)
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] I forgot about all of those.
Dr. Lamido is a good friend of ours.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] You seem to respond actually to these,
but it didn't seem to happen right away.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] No, it's not that easy.
Let me tell you a story about
Dr. Lamido. He was fine too.
My wife and I built
a house and then we plant a lot trees,
it was a huge yard.
We plant some pear trees.
They gave pears and
she is so good that she took the pears,
treated them with sugar or something and then dry
them and put them into little plastics paper.
Since Dr. Lamido treats
her and me so well, and she said,
"I want to take a little box,
put there some of these candid pear into the box,
and go to his home."
This was Christmas time.
Say, "This was our Christmas present." I say, "okay."
His house was on the side of Hokum Boulevard.
I went and they had a big yard.
I rang the bell on the gate.
Then a voice said, "Who is this?"
I said, "This is a Dr. TC Hsu.
I have some present for Dr.
Lamido." The voice said,
"Stay there, he'll come."
He actually came was Lamido
himself with about three dogs following him.
I gave him this.
I said, "This is Jeannette
made candid pear from her own tree,
for you and Mrs. Lamido to enjoy."
From what we heard later
that Mrs. Lamido was out of town in Louisiana.
She came back that day and found that box.
She said, "What is this?"
Mickey Lamido said," It
is TC Hsu and Jeanette's, Christmas present.
A candid pear." When she opened,
there were only the wrappings.
(laughing) She found the four of them.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] He ate all the rest.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] She ate all the rest.
Ever since then, she said,
"You don't eat this (laughing) by yourself."
She said, "Let's share it."
She said, " It was so good so I kept eating.
I finally found only four left. I said I'll stop."
(laughing) It was funny.
But now the pears no longer bear fruit. (crosstalk)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] The pollution has killed them?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] They are alive, but they're too old.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Okay.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah. I don t think pears would be in the house in 1969.
This is more than 30 years.
They don't even bloom very much.
But we didn't want to chop
them off because they are old friends.
(laughing)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I'm still trying to (noise) sort out
cell biology and how it's evolved.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah. (crosstalk)
[Lesley Williams Brunet] When Haas stepped down and went more into administration,
I thought David Anderson became temporary head.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] That's correct.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Yeah.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] That's correct.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] Was cytogenetics underneath?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yes.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] It's still a section.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Still there. Yeah. David, naturally,
he didn't want to exude a lot of authority.
He's just a caretaker of Audit Department.
I think he did a reasonably good job at that time.
I understand he is still working here.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I think he's retired.
I've talked to him just briefly on
the phone but I want ask you about,
well, he retired I guess
like you and he's still working.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] I wanted to ask you more about
him because I hoped to interview him also.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] The institute has been treating me so nicely.
I think it was 1980,
I got the burden award.
That time the awardee
would have to make about one hour speech.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] That's a long speech.
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Yeah. (noise) They were like seminar (inaudible).
There was the first time it was recorded.
[Lesley Williams Brunet] You changed TV?
[T.C (Tao-Chiuh) Hsu] Before television or something.
I used to have a copy.
I don't know where it is.
I naturally acknowledge everybody, especially my wife.
I mentioned that we came to Houston.
We were penniless, we were very
poor and (noise) my wife went.