Telegraph TV seven presents
Round Table with your host,
Dr. Gary McCaleb.
Welcome to roundtable today, we'll be
talking about the events in the Middle
East. We have two special guests with
us with a great deal of experience
in those countries.
And we welcome you today.
First on my left, Dr. Jaber
try's former United Nations
ambassador from Syria for
a number of years, as
well as thirty three years as an
ambassador to other countries.
And on my right, Dr. Henry Specked, the
third history professor at ICU who spent
10 years teaching
in Egypt, Iran and Iraq.
Welcome to both of you.
And I look forward to the discussion that
we'll have today.
The things that happen on the Middle
East, I suppose, to many people,
suddenly erupted.
Was it really all that sudden or
for those of you who knew more about what
was going on? Has this been something
that has been slowly building
under the surface for a long time?
When I was in this country, Bush was in
Syria when it all happened.
I only know that during
the war of eight years between
Iraq and Iran,
Saddam Hussein spent everything he had
and borrowed very heavily
from other countries.
He, at the same time has
had territorial ambitions,
which included economic considerations
in the Gulf.
And his claim that certain oil fields in
particular, which are on an undefined
border between Kuwait and
Iraq, should have belonged
to Iraq.
So there was that general background of
a pressing need for cash, cash
flow, as much as we would say, and
territorial ambitions as well.
And of course, there were things
that in Congress discussed in Congress
and the Israelis did, in point of fact,
apparently say that Saddam very
seriously was intending
to make such a move.
So, yes, there
is no one should have been aware of
a certain kind of background.
And Saddam has always been one of those
people, unlike a lot of other people
in the Middle East who generally does
what he says he's going to do.
Dr. Electra's, as you
your home country of Syria shares
its eastern border with the country of
Iraq, are you
aware of the history
of the relationship between those two
countries?
How would you characterize it in terms of
has it been tense?
Has it been friendly?
Well, I would say that
our relations, Syria and
Iraq were
very tense the whole time.
For many years already,
Saddam Hussein of
Iraq and Hafez al-Assad
of Syria were
not only antagonists,
not only divided in
all their politics,
but they were really enemies.
They couldn't stand each other.
And the last time that we had a
summit of the Arab countries,
well, our president
didn't go at all.
He didn't like to go and he would
never go because they are very
much opposed to each other in
everything.
For example, before during the war
with Iran, Syria
was on the
side of Iran in spite
of being the war being waged
between two
between two countries.
Muslim, of course.
But we had to be on the
side of Iraq, which
is an Arab country, rather a country, as
we call it always.
But still, our president
was on the side of Iran,
which means that really the relations
were very, very tense between both of
them. Mm hmm.
There has always been the impression, I
think, at least to those of us
just watching from the outside,
that that there was a very tight
bond, almost a brotherhood, as you just
referred to it, between,
uh, or among the Arab countries
and among the Muslim countries
and so forth.
Is that bond breaking
apart at this time as
as we are seeing countries on opposing
sides?
Well, this
I've had since
I think Saddam Hussein took power
and even a little bit before him.
And the reason for that,
the main reason is that the Baath
Party, which was established
in Syria, in Damascus
by Michelle IFLA,
who is a Syrian, a Christian,
Syrian, and which has
as principal
one Arab nation with
an eternal mission, that
is the motto of the Baath
Party, which was born in
Syria.
But for some time
back, uh,
maybe for eight years already
or more even the Baath
Party was it
had two wings.
One wing is in Syria,
which is the the
Syrian wing of the Baath Party.
The other wing that we call the
international wing of the Baath Party
was with Iraq.
And from that time, each wing
which each part of
this division between inside
within the. Baath Party,
each one was
claiming to be the real
Baath representative,
and from that time, each one
of them sought to lead
the Arab world and to have the first
word in the Arab world and
to make a union between the Arabs and so
many things. But they were slogans only.
And I believe, frankly, now
that the problem is the problem
of the two questions, Saddam
Hussein and how
I said each one is
very ambitious, very
strong willed man.
Each one is building his country to
lead the Arab people.
Syria was considered for the last 10
years, may be the key for
the whole Arab situation,
for the conflict with Israel and of so
many things and Iraq in
the country, they thought that
their war with Iran
was made and
for an Arab for an
Arab cause.
And Saddam Hussein thought that
it was to reestablish the strength
of the Arab world and
to be really the Arab world
must be united.
And none of the Middle East
countries can be really compete
with him and with the Arab world.
But the leadership of the Arab world,
he thought it would be it would
be almost in his hands.
And that's why he made this war
with Iran. He thought that and to explain
his as Dr. Henry,
because he always
declared that all this
war with Iran was
for the Arabs sake and
for other people.
You while you've been in the States for
a number of years, you actually went
returned to Syria for two
months during the summer.
Yes. Uh, how did you find
things in Syria as far as the
feeling of the people of Syria
about what was going on?
Well, while I was
there, I've been there for that
from the in June, the whole
month of June, the whole month of
July.
And it was a surprise for everybody.
Of course, this aggression
I call it aggression because I believe
that an aggression against an
Arab independent country, Kuwait,
was a big surprise for everybody
above all that we have so many Syrians
living in Kuwait.
There are many
of so many countries, Muslim
and Arab, who live in Kuwait
and who are making money, plenty
of money. Kuwait is rich.
Egypt, for example, had
has the biggest number
of workers
working in Kuwait and sending their money
every month.
I read and I think that's right.
Billions of, uh,
of dollars worth
to their country in Syria.
I have a relation of mine,
a friend of mine, many of them
working there, either as expats
or as I do for education
and for school out of business.
So it was
really a big surprise.
And we are very sorry about it.
And all our people had to go back
to Syria, which was really
a great loss for the Syrian, because
we need the money of
Kuwait to come to Syria.
Like all other nations like Sri Lanka,
Pakistan, Afghanistan, India,
Philippines, all these people had
thousands of workers
in Kuwait.
How many of them have come back
and have been held
held of these countries?
It's not in Syria in particular.
Are they being held still in,
you know, because Saddam would have a
particular interest in helping Syrians
against al-Assad?
Yes, exactly.
I mean, such hostages
would be extremely useful politically
and militarily.
Yes. For Saddam Hussein against
genocide. Yes.
So, well, there are some in
this situation I
didn't hear, frankly speaking, I didn't
hear anything about the kind of hostages,
for example, or, uh,
to retain to keep people from Syria
with this purpose, uh,
against you to use them against
Assad.
But you don't you think that
Saddam Hussein would be interested
to have collected some
Syrian nationals in
Kuwait if he could?
Saddam Hussein is doing his
best to finish with the
regime of Bashar al-Assad in Syria.
And he's attempting he's doing all
he's. Very best not
only to finish with the review itself,
but even to kill Saddam as to
kill, I said if you could,
and many identities
were accomplished by him
and threw him against
Syria.
Explosions, for example, in many
places of Syria, just
to make people
to be
to like to finish with the have that had
and to make it possible to have it now.
Excuse me, Doctor Arbitrages, we need to
take a break for just a minute and we'll
return and continue this discussion.
It makes life safer to have rules,
you have rules, someone would get hurt
to make noise on the bus because
sometimes the bus driver who
needs to hear, say here are average.
We have to stop by the train tracks.
Yeah, yeah.
And Steve.
To push the curve, otherwise you could
get flattened or something, show
up at least 10 feet away from the bus so
you can see a driver drive to you.
It's very cool to follow the rules.
Don't let a forest
turn into this.
Only you can prevent forest
fires.
Welcome back to roundtable as we visit
today about the Middle East and
we're talking with Dr. Jabarah Attridge
and Dr. Henry Lee, expec
you spent two years teaching in
Egypt, two years, I believe,
in Iraq and six years in Iran.
During those times, you had
an opportunity that many Americans
will never have to,
since the moods of
the various Arab countries
and cultures and things.
And what I was beginning to hear in your
discussions just before the break
was that there are almost
political implications
within political implications of what's
going on, and that while
we're seeing a scene between,
uh, that we we think is unfolding
between the Middle East and
the other countries of the United States
and Russia, you're also seeing,
InnerWorkings, between the Arab
countries.
Uh, is that a long term,
uh, ongoing kind of thing
that was never aware of you?
And when you had there are two kinds of
things and that David was talking about
the Syria and Iraqi thing.
You know, what runs through one's mind
is, well, what happens to Egypt in all of
this? Because throughout the 50s and the
60s under Nasser,
then Egypt played this role
and Nasser played this role.
And in point of fact, many analysts
would say that with Nasser's death of
this massive heart attack in 1970
and the appearance then al-Assad
in Syria, Saddam
Hussein behind his uncle for a time
in Iraq,
and new Egyptian leaders in
a new Egyptian leaders, King
Hussein in Jordan, these people are all
vying to become the
new Nasser.
So in Egypt
or in Jordan and of course, extension of
Pikul in Jordan,
other people looking on and seeing what's
going on. This rivalry between al-Assad
and Saddam Hussein are saying, hey,
what role do we play in this?
We do not want to be left out and we
don't want either one of them running
our country. So there is a split
here within
the Arab community and a worse
split with Iran because
Iranians aren't Arabs, because
there's a long rivalry that stretches
back for thousands of years between
people of the lowlands and people of the
highlands.
And of course, Iran just lost the war,
I suppose once has lost war against
Iraq and now Saddam is prepared to
try to buy Iranian friendship.
And he can't possibly believe
that the Iranians will ever be friends.
They've never been friends. And
particularly after the last eight years,
they'll take what they can get from him.
But friends, not so the Iranians
exclusive of any interest for the
Russians or the Americans or Europeans
are concerned. The Japanese, others are
seeking to find what benefit they
can make out of the situation.
And we'll play whomever.
However, in order to benefit
Iran, Egypt will do the same.
Uh, Hussein of Jordan will
do the same insofar as he can.
Let's talk about Egypt's role in this for
a minute, because it seems that President
Mubarak has come out very
forcefully on the side of the United
States in this.
And that was did that surprise
you at all to see him
more or less take opposing views
against Arab brother
countries?
Well, it's been said, you know, he's
taking a tremendous risk.
And the secretary of state said on
television yesterday that the seven
billion dollars we're going to forgive
was not part of a bargain.
What would the Syrians say about that?
But how do you how
do you view President Mubarak's position
in Egypt, taking the position
that they have of aligning themselves?
I would say and if this is not accurate,
please correct me, but I would say very
much against,
uh, well, Iraq and
what they're doing and very much aligning
themselves with the United States.
Well, for the Arab world,
almost all of the Arab world are
against this aggression of Saddam
Hussein and Syria
and Egypt.
They were they were in command.
They were on the side of
the United States.
And we know
all of us, that Egypt has already
sent some
soldiers from from its
army to Saudi Arabia.
And Syria also sent
thousands of its army
on the borders, which, along
with Iraq
and Syria, has to to feel
something that we have so many Syrians
already who are refugees
in Iraq because they are against
how flechette.
And among them, we had
the.
Among the main leaders of the Baath
Party, the Syrian side,
so we are very much afraid of Iraq
and we don't think that Iraq would attack
now, but it actually
is disappointed at any time to
finish the regime of Bashar al-Assad.
And Egypt is on the side
of Syria because Egypt wouldn't
accept Egypt as the sister
Arab country.
The bigger, the
stronger in the whole Arab world.
They had something like 50000
million people.
They out of that one million kilometers
of area.
It is the biggest and the most important.
And it's the center of all the action
of the Arab world for Union
and Yemen,
as it was definitely for every
Arab. We think of him
that you are the greatest leader
to unite the Arab world
and to play a great role
for the union of the Arab world
and to give
us the role we should
play in the whole world,
politically and economically and
everything.
So, uh,
Egypt for us is very
important.
And Egypt is against Saddam
Hussein. Who would lead?
Who would be the superpower
who told it so many times?
I know him personally.
I had occasion to meet him
in Damascus.
And I know that he is very ambitious,
very stubborn, and
he likes to impose his
point of view to everybody.
He likes everybody to be on his side.
And nobody would
accept Saddam Hussein to
be the superpower in there.
So Egypt, Syria,
Jordan, all of them, Jordan,
they have another position because they
are depending too much and too much
economically and in every
way to Iraq they can to
put Iraq for the time being.
But Egypt and Syria, which are
the main big country, fairly
strong and ready to
fight, they are against all
this question of aggression of
Saddam Hussein against Iraq.
And I'd like to get both of you
to respond to the next question,
because, you know, to
the extent that, you know, Saddam Hussein
and the extent that each of you know
the moods, the cultures, all
of the inner workings of the background
of this situation, now that it is built
to the point that it has and now that the
forces continue to build,
uh, uh, against,
uh, on the borders, is it possible
at this point for this situation to be
resolved with words
through negotiations,
knowing the people involved, or is it
something that you feel like sooner
or later is going to result in in
military conflict?
You go first?
Well, I think personally,
really, after my experience
in the Arab affairs
and after being in the United
Nations for so long
and knowing every
one of the Arab leaders,
I thought that the question would be
resolved.
But now, after what happened
so far, it is.
Well, I think
I am very doubtful that
the question could be
resolved in a peaceful way,
because the more Saddam Hussein
is in the news, the more
he thinks himself is important and
he is obstinate.
His nation depends on the time.
The time is on his favor.
Do you think he is enjoying all this
attention?
Definitely.
Definitely, because his
ambitions and the self
pride is so big
and limited.
And if he changed his
photos and
all the world
busy with this crisis,
he thinks himself is important and he's
very happy.
So I don't think that Saddam Hussein
would give up easily.
I know that he is really a
despot, usually Tehran
in the right way.
And he has killed so many people
from his country.
For example, I give you something that
everybody knows, uh, General
Hiralal, who
is a relative
of his and who was the
main leader
of the of the Iraqi army
in their war with Iran
after the victory, what we call victory,
we don't know exactly what it is, how to
how to call it, but how it
was killed by
Saddam Hussein because.
He was very much, uh,
jealous of the popularity
of General Hayler and
just he put him in, uh,
in in a helicopter,
he sent him with some generals
also, and he ordered
the explosion of the
helicopter.
And General Hietala, what a great
man who was director general of the
great leader was killed by Saddam
Hussein. Saddam Hussein doesn't
hesitate to kill everybody in.
Usually he doesn't hesitate
to do everything
as well as I know him because I know him.
I am following his steps.
Yeah, well, as you say,
to do anything
just to be important for
is important for his name.
So I am very much afraid the time is for
him.
And the more that he won't back down,
never. I think what is
interesting about you agree.
Yeah. I think time is definitely on his
side. I think, uh,
the job is absolutely correct.
I think I would only add that
Saddam is a very clever man,
is not a very well educated man.
He has not spent much time outside
of Iraq.
He doesn't understand Westerners.
And therefore, I would think he would
misinterpret us.
His whole life has been one of fighting
his way to the top, staying at the top
by killing people.
I don't think he knows another way of
doing things.
So when you put these things
together plus plus one other thing I
think I would add is the chances are that
he's not being told what's happening
anyway.
Uh, people who lead these kinds of
countries are never told
the truth. So he will see pictures
on television of
resistance by
Kuwaitis, helped
by us, by volunteers
from Saudi Arabia, from other Arab
countries, blowing up
Iraqi tanks,
trucks and things in Kuwait.
He will say, oh, disinformation.
They're trying to make me think so.
I will capitulate.
And he will be he will ask his generals,
is this true? And the generals?
Of course not.
You know, it's not possible because they
will be canned if it's true.
And kind of their situation
is joblessness is very, very difficult.
So I think you he won't understand what's
going on. He won't exactly know what's
going on. He, in point of fact, has lived
his whole political life one way,
guerrilla fighting.
And you combine these things
and the fact that there is no way at this
point for him to save face,
I can't see people say, well, there must
be a way that he can save face.
I don't see how, because we essentially
are saying he must go.
And going in the Arab world does
not mean a pension.
It means death.
So in other words, if you think it's
really a matter with him of
he has to hold his position, he can't
back down, back down would lose face
and probably mean death and would mean
death to probably mean his his his
death.
So I don't see that there is a particular
way. But I think, you know, I really
agree with Jabbar about time being on his
side. He has Kuwait,
he has hostages, tons of Egyptian
hostages and Syrians,
Americans, Germans,
French.
He has enough food, uh,
best estimates supposedly in this country
of five to six months.
He can afford to sit back and wait and
see what Bush does, knowing
full well that Bush will have difficulty
in continuing to command support
from the allies and from the American
people.
So I would have thought Saddam will sit
and say, what does
Bush do? And if Bush does anything, he
can claim this pan Arab leadership again,
jihad, holy war
against Western imperialism, Western
materialism.
And there will be people in the Arab
world who will support that because there
are lots of people who are
disenfranchized, disenfranchized,
Palestinians, disenfranchized Egyptians
who are very pleased with what he did
because he thought a stable family in
Kuwait was a lazy
bunch of good for nothings who ought to
be thrown out anyway.
So he has some support in the Arab world.
It's an extremely complicated, extremely
puzzling. And yet at the particular
point that we now find ourselves,
it's it's something that affects
the entire world. The entire world's
attention has been drawn to
this area.
Well, you know, it's costing
an awful lot of money every day.
And we have a budget deficit anyway.
And so it may
be that it comes home to us ultimately,
not in terms of oil, but in terms of a
wider economic problem.
I'm sorry we're out of time, but thank
you both for taking the time for us
to discuss this today.
And thank you for being with us at the
roundtable with.
Dr. Jabarah triage
and Dr. Henry specked the third.