Christian Messenger (Bonham, Tex.), Vol. 6, No. 31, Ed. 1 Wednesday, August 11, 1880 Page: 4 of 8
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4
CHRISTIAN MESSENGER.
,
TEE MESSENGER
T. R. BURNETT, Editor.
associate editors :
Ciias. Cart-ton, - Bonham, Texas,
j. M. Biard, - Biardstown/I exits.
R. C. Horn, - - McKinney. Texas.
U. W. Williams, - Davilla, Texas.
C. Kendrick, - . Oakland, Cal.
explanation of close commun-10Ver the "beginning of the
• 1 1 ___L i. 1,__A . « 1 -1 • . ft
Ihc Ray-Wlimeth Debate. .
We noticed in onr other ar-
ticle the failure of Mr. Ray to
establish the faith-alone sys-
tem. He said he did not be-
lieve a sinner was saved with-
out repentance and prayer—
hence, did not believe his own
system of faith alone. He
quoted, “Whosoever believed)
that Jusus is the Christ is born
of God,” but said before the
debate was over that this was
no more than devil faith, for
all the devils bad that much
faith. Then he said that the
eunuch’s confession was a good
Baptist experience ! His op-
ponent told him he must bap-
tize men on that experience
hereafter! The main reliance
of the faith-alone theory was
in cases of pardon before the
death of Christ. Bro. Wilmeth
destroyed the argument here,
by showing that these cases
occurred before the giving of
the last law—before', the last
will was of force and effect—
before the testator had died.
There was a resort to battle-
fields and the isles of the sea
and to prisons, to show that
God had made a mistake in
connecting baptism with sal-
vation, and that he onght to
have placed it on the system of
faith alone, so as to meet every
necessity of life, and put it out
of the reach of human instru-
mentality. Bro. .Wilmeth
showed that the faith-alone
system was dependent upon
hunmn agency. “How shall
they believe in him of whom
they have not heard, and how
shall they hear without a
preacher?” “So then faith
eometh by hearing, and hear-
ing by the word of God.” The
church is “the pillar and ground
of the truth.” “God made choice
that by my mouth the Gen-
tiles should hear the word of the
gospel and believe.” Mr. Ray
did not produce an.example in
which any man wished to be
baptized and become a Chris-
tian, and could not do so be-
cause there was nobody to bap-
tize him.
• » ~ I
There was some lively
squirming over the close-com-
munion question. Bro. Wil-
meth pressed Dr. Ray to show
where any apostolic church ev-
er set the Lord’s table and ex-
cluded a part of the Lord's
children. Dr. Ray instanced
the case of the Savior and the
twelve apostles on the night of
the betrayal, and said that
Mary the mother of Jesus, and
the hundred and twenty, and
perhaps others, were in Jeru-
salem and were not permitted
to eat with Jesus and the
twelve! Which proves (if i*:
proves anything) that Mary
and the hundred and twenty
were not Baptists, or it they
were, they were guilty of some
heterodoxy that placed them
beyond the pale of Baptist fel-
lowship ! you Baptist preach-
ers of Texas, who have been
searching a long ti^ue for some
ion, have here an argument that
settles the question. You would
doubtless be ashamed of it,
if it had not come from your big
doctor of St. Louis, who came to
“take Jerusalem!” But now you
must use it. Possibly you can
find a crumb of comfort for the
Methodist brethren, in this.
Mary and the other diciples
were perhaps pedo-baptists,and
therefore could not commune!
Dr. Ray made a good deal of
noise over Baptist succession.
He said the Baptists were the
only people that had continued
from the days of th^ apostles.
But he could not even prove
that the Baptists commenced
at thempostles, much less con-
tinued. He could not find a
Baptist church in the Bible,
and could not find where the
chain connected with the apos-
tolic church. There was no
Baptist church for hundreds of
years after Paul and Peter
died. His chain of baptized
believers and martyrs, down
throngh the wilderness, was
shown to be a Christian chain,
and not a Baptist chain. The
Waldenses, and Albigenses
called themselves Chris-
tians and not Baptists, and
called their churches ^‘churches
of Christ,” and not Baptist
churches. They also baptized
for the remission of sins, and
did not use the mourning
bench. The Missionary Bap-
tist church commenced a long
while after Alex. Campbell re-
formed the old Baptist church.
Bro. Wilmeth read the pas-
sage, “they ordained them eld-
ers in every ' church,” and
showed that the Baptist church
is not identical with the apos-
colic church in that it has only
one elder to several churches.
Dr. Ray tried to explain this,by
saying that they have more
than one elder in their large
city churches,sometimes. This
would have done, if the pas-
sage had read, “they ordained
them elders in their city
churches.” But it does not so
read. Neither do the Baptists
have “elders in every city
church.” We defy them to
produce a city church in the
state of Texas that has a plu-
rality of elders—official elders—
that rule and teach in the
body. One church tried to
have an “assistant pastor,”
(not two elders,) and it was
considered a new departure
among Baptist customs.
Bro. Wilmetli showed twelve
points of identity between the
church to which he belonged
and the apostolic church. 1.
The name. 2. Foundation. 3.
Beginning. 4. Faith. 5. Re
pentance. 0. Baptism. 7.
Operation of Spirit throngh the
word. 8. Evidence of pardon.
9. Communion on first day of
the week. 10. Plurality of el-
ders in every church. 11. Eter-
nal salvation conditional. 12.
Bible the only creed. Dr.
Ray'tried to make a show of
opposition on some of these
points, but did not successfully
meet a single one of them.
On the name, he wanted his
opponent to find the name,
“Christian church” in the Bi-
ble. Bro. Wilmeth told him
we did not call the church by
that name, but by its scriptur-
al title, “church of God” and
“church of Christbnt that
we, like the apostle Peter, call
Christ’s people Christians. Dr
church, and spread it out from
the days of John the Baptist to
the crucifixion of Christ. At
one time he had it commenced
in the days of John; and peo-
ple pressing into it, and then
he moved it up to the time of
the giving of the laws and or-
dinances of the kingdom. Then
he had Christ’s law and the
Jewish law in force at the same
time, and Christ’s priesthood
and the Aaronic priesthood in
force at the same time. It was
hard to tell what he believed
about it. When pressed, he
would not say the church was
fully established from the days
of John the Baptist, but that it
existed in some sense from
that time, yet he quoted “the
law and the prophets were un-
til John” more than any other
passage in the whole Bible.
He also held that if Christ’s
church commenced on pente-
cost, Mr. Campbell’s church did
not commence for eighteen
hundred years after that time.
Bro. Wilmeth told hinr that he
did not belong to Mr. Camp-
bell’s church, and that Mr.
Campbell never had any
church, and did not set up one
in 1827. He reformed an ex-
isting church, and taught peo-
ple that they shonld be like
Chirstians were in the days of
the apostles. It was shown that
Mr. Campbell and the churches
that reformed with him were
in Mr. Ray’s line of succession,
(if that be worth anything,)
and were never turned out of
the Baptist church. Brush
Run and Wellsburg churches,
and Mahoning association, and
perhaps fifty oilier churches,
say, “Repent and receive the
the Holy Spirit and the remis-
sion of sins, and you shall be
baptized.” Paul said that
persons died to sin, were
buried with Christ in baptism,
and were raised up to walk in
newness of life; hence his
form of doctrine—death, buri-
al and resurrection. But Bap-
tists reverse the order, and put
it, death, resurrection, burial.
According to their system, the
sinner first dies to sin, then
arises to the new life, and is
then buried! They bury live
people, and have the resurrec-
tion before the burial! Mr.
Ray spluttered over this fear-
fully, but could not help it in
the least. And he hushed up
at once about people reversing
God’s order.
The debate continued four
days, and resulted in a ^decided
victory for the truth. Under
the circumstances, it was a
you open the gate to let in oth-
er conditions not mentioned in
the text, you give me a chance
to let in baptism also.
Methodist—We Methodists
believe in the necessity of re-
pentance, and do not think a
sinner can be saved without it.
Christian—Then you do not
believe in faith alone. If any
thing else is necessary, the sal-
vation is not by faith alone.
Methodist—But the repent-
ance is included. It is under-
stood with the faith. It is on-
ly a collateral of faith.
Christian—Faith alone doesn’t
include anything. It excludes
everything. It has no collat-
erals.
Methodist-—But you cannot
find a passage in the Scrip-
tures that attributes salvation
to baptism.
Christian—“The like figure
whereunto even baptism doth
also now save us.” Pet. 3i2i.
apostolic succession” that
came down through the Bap-
tist line, and did not lose a
drop of it when they exchang-
ed their human creed for the
Bible and their human name
for a Bible name. Mr. Ray
said that their split with the
Baptists made them a new
sect. Bro. Wilmeth replied
that if a split made a new sect,
then the Missionary Baptist
church is a new sect, for it
split from the old Baptists
after Campbell did. So away
goes all Mr. Ray’s succession!
He is a member of a church
that is much younger than
Campbell’s reformation. When
Mahoning association laid
down “Baptist usage” and took
the Bible, there was no such
body in the world as the Mis-
sionary Baptist church!
Mr. Ray made a good deal
of bluster over the fact that
Mr. Wihneth’s church reverses
the order of faith and repent-
ance, and places faith lirst.
The Savior preached, “Repent
ye and believe the gospel.” It
was shown that this was ad-
dressed to persons that already
believed in God—they were
the debate, in fact tried to
avoid it, and when forced into
it -by the Baptists, (because
they thought they had a great
man,) and gained so easy a
victory, the result is much more
decisive. The Baptists will
not try to take “Jerusalem”
again in a good while. When
they do. we advise them to
bring heavier metal. A cow-
bell will not bring down the
walls.
A lively Dialogue.
Christian—Well, are you
ready to talk about “water
salvation ?”
Methodist—Yes, I would like
to have your reasons for think
possessed "all “the'“g7ace’r'of ing that water haa anything to
double victory. The church of t Methodist-Peter has reference
Christ at Bonham did not seek! to the salvation in the days of
* * ‘ * 3 A Noah, and that was in the ark,
and not by water.
Christian—-Peter says by
water. He says the eight souls
“were saved by water, the
like figure whereunto even bap-
tism doth also now save us.”
Methodist—Why, well—I
always thought it was the ark
that saved them, and baptism
is a figure of that. That is
what our preacher says.
Christian—-That will not
help the matter any. If the
ark saved them,, and baptism
is like the ark, then baptism
saves us!
Methodist-—I never thought
of that before. You have the
advantage in that text. But
you can not find a text that
says that baptism alone saves
ns.
Chiistian—No. There is
no such text in the Bible. And
there is no text in the Bible
that teaches faith alone, or
works alone. There are very
few ‘alones’ in the Scriptures.
Methodist—-Our preachers
all preach salvation by faith
only.
Christian-—They do not be-
lieve what they preach. Ask
them if they believe a sinner
can be saved without repent-
ance ? The words “faith only”
occur but once in the whole
Bible, and that is where James
sa^s “not by faith only.”
Methodist—-There seems to
be some connection between
baptism and salvation, bnt I
can not believe that sins are
remitted in baptism-—that bap-
tism is for the remission of
sins. > *
Christian—-The Book says it
is. “Repent and be baptized
every one of you in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission
of sins.” Acts 2.38. s
Methodist—-Bnt it does not
say that baptism washes away
sins.
Christian—-Arise and be
baptized and wash away thy
sins, calling on the name of
the Lord.”
Methodist--Itdoes read like
do with saving sinners.
Christian—I have no reason
except what the Book says
about it.
Methodist—Do you think the
Book says that baptism really
saves us ?
Christian—It says, “He that
believeth and is baptized shall
be saved.”
Methodist—Bnt it does not
say, “He that believeth not
and is not baptized shall be
damned.”
Christian—No, it does not
say that; but it says the other.
Can you not believe what it
says ?
Methodist—Yes, I believe all
it says, but I think it is the
faith that does the saving,
Christian—The Book does
not say so. It says, “He that
believeth and is baptized shall
be saved. We are not con-
cerned about what you think.
Methodist—This passage
seems to be in yonr favor, bnt
there are passages that attrib-
ute salvation to faith. “God
so loved the world that he gave
his only begotton son that who-
soever believeth in him should
not perish but have everlasting
->■
m
God’s people.already, but had life.” Here is faith alone
sinned against him. Bro. there is no baptism in this
Wilmetli presented a black- passage.
board, showing wherein the Christian—There is no re-
Baprints reverse the Bible o- pentance in it either, and no
der. Christ said, “He that
believeth and is baptized shall
prayer. Do you believe a sin
ner'can be. saved without re- i it, but then, if baptism is nec-
be saved ” Baptists say, ”He pentance, and without prayer ? essary to salvation, it seems to
that beiieveth and is saved Methodist-Well, no. but me that u p aces salvation ,n
shall be baptized.” Peter | repentance is understood in the the hands of men.
said, “Repent and be bapti zed
for the remission of sins, and
you shall receive the gift of
Ray made some littie bluste, the Holy Spirit.” Baptists
passages where it is not men-
tioned.
Chsistian—Perhaps other
things are understood also. If
Christian—Salvation is in
Ihe hands of men on yonr
faith-alone theory. “How shall
they believe in^iim of whom
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Burnett, Thomas R. Christian Messenger (Bonham, Tex.), Vol. 6, No. 31, Ed. 1 Wednesday, August 11, 1880, newspaper, August 11, 1880; Bonham, Texas. (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth974483/m1/4/: accessed July 17, 2024), University of North Texas Libraries, The Portal to Texas History, https://texashistory.unt.edu.; crediting Bonham Public Library.