-: Well by then, I was well advanced
into my County Line Project,
which I had started in '88
back when I was still very much
in the Rape Crisis Center business.
'Cause I was living in Austin, you know
and coming here and visiting my parents.
And that's when I became acquainted with the Upshaws,
and I had been doing that.
So I did more of that.
And as I recall, I think I was probably living
off a little family money at that point.
Which was always helpful.
Interviewer: So let's (mumbles)
I guess, '88.
So you were visiting your parents
throughout all of this
and from your observations,
how had Nacogdoches changed
in that time since
when you were a little boy until
-: Well, I was only very superficially familiar
with Nacogdoches cause I
until I, until I started doing this project
I didn't really come back that much.
I, I liked it a lot better in Austin
than I did it here, did here.
No, th- th- the, the, the pieces that, you know
I have a long family history here
and my parents grew up here
and they knew everybody here
so, people would know me
and I wouldn't know them.
And
when I was here,
I didn't really move around.
I didn't develop my own social circle here.
I was here for fairly short periods of time
and, you know
on holidays for the main part, most part.
But then when I started coming here to
to do the Upshaw project.
Again
I didn't hardly spend any time here.
I was out there all the time.
I spend more time with them
than I did with my parents.
So, um
I don't really know how to answer that.
I don't think I was ever familiar enough with
Nacogdoches to have a reference point
to tell you the truth.
interviewer: Sometimes visitors have
some of the more interesting (mumbles)
-: Well, I, I always thought of,
you know, of course I
I lived in Austin, which is
of course the best place in Texas to live.
At least it was then. I'm not so sure now
but I was, I came with,
I sort of had an arrogant attitude
toward it all and I,
you know, I wasn't
I wasn't ashamed of Nacogdoches,
but it wasn't something, I
I was really glad I didn't grow up here.
I'll tell you that.
Um.
Even though growing up
in Midland was not all that different, I suppose
but it was a larger town anyway.
But there wasn't really much
going on in Nacogdoches then
in terms of entertainment or,
or even, you know, restaurants
or stuff like that,
there wasn't really that much going on.
It really wasn't until I came back to live here
that I started making some kind of, you know
creating some kind of social network
and frame of interest to deal with.
interviewer: So how did you get involved
in with
the Upshaws at County line?
-: You really want to know?
Okay.
Well, this, this is one I have
down because I've been talking about this a lot.
Um.
When I first started trying
to find a place to do some work.
I had no idea that such places,
this County line existed.
I didn't.
I knew there's some old communities around here
but I never thought in terms of
black communities.
But I was friends with
a man named F. E. Abernathy. Professor Abernathy.
AB, who was quite famous around here.
He's deceased now, but he's an old family friend.
And at the time was still teaching at SFA.
And so I went and talked to him about this
and he's the one who told me about the fact
that there were black communities here,
where blacks had owned their own land
since the emancipation, that's all.
That's not possible.
How can that be?
And I was very surprised.
I didn't know that black communities
existed in, on the country.
And I certainly didn't know
that they were landowners.
And I became very curious about that.
And so from that point forward, it was like, okay
I've got to find someplace like this to go in.
And so he introduced me to Marion Upshaw
who was born and raised there.
At the time he was an administrator at NISD.
So, I went and met him,
told him what I wanted to do.
Wanted to take pictures, learn about the history.
So he invited me out to County Line
the first time, the day
after Thanksgiving, 1988,
to meet his parents, which I did.
And that didn't go terribly well
because apparently some other white guy had been
out there wanting to take pictures
and it hadn't gone over very well.
So we went outside and Marion
suggested that I get back
in my truck and go a little bit further down the road.
And I introduced myself to his uncle Monell.
His father's younger brother.
He did not volunteer to go with me.
And it was at that point
that I started thinking, what was I thinking?
What?
Why would any
of these people want to
have anything to do with me?
And I've really had
some strong self doubts at that point
but I did get back in my truck
and I did drive down the road
a little bit further. Parked
under the big red Oak tree
in front of their house.
Got out,
and I saw a man who turned out to be Monell,
standing off a bit in a hog pen.
Went over there and shook hands with him.
Told him who I was
and told him what I'd like to do.
And would that be okay with him?
And he paused for a moment and said,
well, I don't see why not.
It's like, Oh, okay.
(laughs)
So, that's all there was to it.
Well, almost all there was to it.
He and his wife, Liotta welcomed me
in their home from that day forward,
no questions asked.
Which I still am amazed about.
I still don't understand that.
Uh, their children,
took a bit longer to say the least.
Though because Monell was
in effect, the head of the town, the community.
And he said, you can do, you can go wherever
you want to take pictures of whatever you want to.
Nobody was going to question him, no matter
how they felt about it.
So, so, I had that going for me.
But at the same time,
I was very aware that this was not my turf.
And our, every time I went out there early on
it felt like I was going
into a different,
someplace, a different country
almost.
This different cultural environment.
Um, so,
that was the case for probably
a year or two.
Then things started, you know,
becoming more normal.
The longer I went, the,
you know, the more normal it seemed.
But one funny story,
or they have a homecoming
every year,
the weekend of the second Sunday in August.
So, my first opportunity to go
to a homecoming was in 1989,
which I did.
And I drove out there and I parked
and got out of my truck
and headed toward the house
and was met at the gate.
But one of their sons who lived in California
who I'd never met before.
Now I've been going out there
for the better part of a year.
And
Lord only knows what was being talked about
but,
this man had been hearing
about this white guy
out in the community,
taking pictures,
messing around
and talking and asking all kinds of questions.
And to add to that, he was a highway patrolman
in California.
So he met me at the gate,
and his name is Tinchy,
his nickname.
And,
he was checking me out big time.
Now he wasn't rude.
I did not take offense.
I knew exactly what he was doing.
He had every right to do it,
and I actually sort of enjoyed it.
Surprising.
It wasn't something I expected
but, and we became very good friends.
And sadly, he died an untimely death
a few years ago
and a great tragedy.
I mean, he was, I think he had an aneurysm,
I'm not sure what it was, but
Tinchy was a wonderful human being
and everybody liked him.
I loved him.
I'd give anything to have him back.
He was so much fun to talk to.
He was a very positive human being.
And at his memorial service
in Los Angeles,
we all went out there
and all but one of his siblings who stayed,
their mother was an invalid at the time
Liotta was an invalid,
so, somebody had to stay and take care of her.
We went all, all went out there and
in this little church,
it was standing room only.
He had all kinds of-
As a, as a highway patrol man,
he had a different kinds of jobs.
One of which was to supervise school bus drivers.
The place was full of school bus drivers.
Lots of other people that he had.
He had an effect on and-
My favorite story
in the whole experience of County line
from the beginning to now,
in that service
I was sitting next to Faye,
and I'm getting ahead of myself.
Many years before Liotta,
in church on a homecoming Sunday
had claimed me as her foster son.
This was after two or three years
of being out there,
which just shocked everybody, especially me.
So, I became brother Richard
or uncle Richard or whoever
you know.
So, at this service
I was sitting next to my sister Faye,
who was another California person.
On the other side of her
was her granddaughter Raya,
who at the time was probably
seven or eight years old.
At the front was another sister,
Marilyn, introducing the Texas contingent.
And when she got to me, she said,
our brother, our adopted brother,
Richard Orton.
And after the service was over,
Faye came to me and said
that when Marilyn had said that,
Raya had turned around to her
and said,
I didn't know Uncle Richard was adopted.
True story.
I didn't make that up.
Now, that should be what we're all like,
you know, that would solve a lot
of problems right there.
The innocence of children.
interviewer: So, what were some of the most,
in the course of this project,
some of the most notable things that you learned
about County line?
-: Well, I,
I learned that
the
the cultural center
of that community,
well, there had historically been two.
A school, and the church.
The school was closed down
in '68, when desegregation occurred,
which something I learned about desegregation.
It was sort of a double-edged sword
because that school was a good school
and what they ended up going to.
Yeah, it was an all white school.
What had been an all white school
where the bond between the parents
and the school was completely severed.
And that was a, was a huge negative.
But anyway, the,
you know, it was the school
and the church and that,
that was, it was, you know
it's not like I was unfamiliar
with schools and churches, but the-
the importance
of those two institutions in this community was
was very, very important, very strong.
And I came to think of it.
But now that it was just the church.
Now, when I was there, it was
like the glue that held the whole place together.
And once I figured that out, it became clear
to me that I had to start going to church.
If I really wanted to get more
of a feel for the community, the, you know,
how it really was working
and how it fit,
how it worked together.
So, I started going to the
church services when I came, when I was in town.
And that was an experience.
I'd never been to a black church before.
Grew up in the Episcopal church.
So, that was one thing,
the importance of the,
it wasn't just
the religious piece of it.
It was a center of human endeavor and activity.
It was, it was where everybody was
on the same ground, so to speak.
And that, to me, in that community, that size
that was different from anything
I'd experienced before.
And the other thing was the
commitment
on the part of most of them,
to keeping their land.
They understood what that meant.
And
it was
the people living there now
and then,
benefited, and knew they benefited.
From what their ancestors,
the original pioneers of the place had done,
which was extremely difficult.
They literally created something out
of nothing
in that wilderness area.
Cut down trees, created fields.
I mean, they worked
harder
than people in this day and age,
I think can imagine.
And they really almost had no choice.
I mean, I I'm certain
that they knew the opportunity they had compared
to what other black folks
were dealing with back then.
And, and I can only try to imagine
what that was like for them
to sort of commitment that, that created in them.
So the value of the land,
the importance of the church
was, was very paramount.
And then family.
And it's like,
you know
these are big families,
you know, Monell and Liotta had thirteen.
And, you know, when you have families that big
it's not unusual to have disagreements
and strife and all that.
But that was not something that ever
predominated.
They were very tolerant of each other.
And I think I've been around long enough now
that I don't think they're just putting that on.
I think if that wasn't true,
I would be picking up on it.
But they, they're very, very family oriented
and both Monell and Liotta are now deceased,
but neither one of them
ever saw the inside of a nursing home.
Not one day.
They might go to the hospital.
They'd always come back home and their daughters
for the most part.
There were enough daughters
that took care of them, 24/7.
So, that, that also made an impression on me.
And that the way that the,
the adults are committed.